Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

[skrumle]

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

Besides I have to stop being a bitch as I'm coming to the November conference!!

Aye....thanks.

I'm sorry to hear things are bad for you posie. To be honest, I'm glad they're not your real views/you feel bad for them, too.

If you want to talk, I'll keep an eye out for another thread.

Brave of you to admit that Posie. I hope things get better.

LRD, I've been having a slightly lacklustre google and it might be in Milton's writings on divorce. I'd forgotten about that quotation, it's so annoying. Mind you, the only character I can remember with any degree of clarity is Satan. He's SO much more fun!

Fascinating stuff about the religious angle, I blame Augustine. Just had to say I had to laugh at this:

"I do wonder a lot about medieval sex, I must admit"

Ah well yes, we've all done it. (Wondered about medieval sex, that is )

Viz the intimacy thing, I think that PIV sex can be some of the least intimate sex - if it's something women don't really want, they can disengage from it, men talk about focusing on football scores to keep themselves from coming, prostituted women refuse to kiss clients because it's too intimate... it can be very intimate of course, but it is so easy to disengage from it while it's actually happening, in a way that isn't possible (for me anyway) with something like kissing.

Jenny - ignore, ignore, ignore. You make a lot more sense than the rest of the loopers on this thread

Posie - really admiring your recent posts on this thread, honesty and introspection like that is hard to admit and rare to come across. Whatever it is that's going on in your life, MN is a great place to find support, distraction or whatever else you need. Big very unMN hugs to you.

Thanks all.

Does anyone know if the 'sex before marriage' rule is clearly only about PIV? Which really means about illegitimate children and support (way back) for that child or is it about not having any intimate acts between non married couples. And then when did marriage come about, because before marriage were humans just free to have sex with whomever?

I still read PIV as P.I.V and not piv.....perhaps if we called it 'piv' people wouldn't be so inclined to do it!!

Just some fact-checks... Milton's Paradise Lost was first printed in 1667, reprinted with alterations in 1671, long after the Mayflower in 1625.

The line is 'He for God only, she for God in him.' The idea is that Eve is meant to know God and everything else through Adam. It's kinda beyond sexist.

And to this day in canon law an unconsummated marriage can be annulled. Consummation = piv (if we must use this odd acronym). This does NOT tell us much about attitudes to sexual pleasure, any of it, since Milton was keen on the idea of female sexual pleasure. Everyone is, even pornographers and rapists, as long as it doesn't inconvenience the lads, that is, as long as it happens automatically, without effort on their parts.

Posie/saf - I think you may be right, fancy a piv sounds just odd.

Albeit it, it might be useful as a substitute for my sometimes swearing around DD - Oh for PIVs sake sounds pretty innocent, doesn't it?

Thanks sieg!

Is it 'piv' with a short 'i' or 'peev'? I just read it aloud as 'peeve' (as in being a bit irritated), which could put you right off the whole idea ...

SAF wrote 'sex as in PIV. I'm doing it now'

SNIGGER!

(proud of contribution to this clever thread)

I reckon "piv" to rhyme with "sieve" (or is that just my odd pronunciation?).

If you are my DD, however, it would rhyme with "wiv". No idea where her strange faux-cockney accent comes from - most of the time, she sounds just vaguely mid-Atlantic. Sigh.

Oh, and glad to hear you're having a good time over there, saf - let us know when you're finished, will you

Good god, I'm turning into Benny Hill as a result of this thread - maybe time to step away....

at sal. Who said feminism threads weren't fun, eh?

Feminism: now with extra piv. So you can enjoy a lighter, brighter period.

(I'm sorry, it just sounded like an always advert in my head. I'll stop now.)

how do you pronounce sieve? i think i say it the same way as i'd say wiv...

[feminism..now with extra piv]

sparky legs it.