Some men really hate women being single don't they?

[solidgoldbrass]

inspired by a couple of other threads including the separatism one. Have you ever noticed that if a man you don't like or know or fancy is trying to persuade you to date him or spend time with him or even just talk to him, the only really effective way to make him fuck off is to tell him that you are another man's property. Just saying No, leave me alone, no thanks, actually I am having a conversation with my female friend and am not interested in talking to you, never seems to work until you throw in My Boyfriend or My Husband.

For what feels like the millionth time, do you honestly think it is ok to keep bothering someone when they've asked you to leave them alone politely?

We're not talking about "owning public space", just the basic courtesy of not forcing a total stranger to talk to you.

We're also not talking about people just talking, we are talking about the situations where someone is trying to force you to date them/fuck them.

Do you honestly think that anyone (male or female) should have to put up with someone insisting that they do something when they have been told no? Because this is what it boils down to. When someone says no should it be respected as "no" or should others me free to ignore it?

I love the way that some people on these threads love to caricature many of the posters as aggressive harridans who are hanging around in meat markets and then getting outraged when some poor unsuspecting nice young chap tries to talk to them, sending him away with his tail between his legs in an indignant rage.

When in actual fact what is being talked about are situations where men (who know that they are not wanted) pester, annoy and intimidate women because they feel like it, they are well aware that their attentions are not welcome but they carry on doing it anyway.

SaF yes I have "rescued" a few very young women in my time.

It's another situation where the attention seems to lessen as you get older. While some would claim that this is for obvious reasons (men preferring younger women) I have a suspicion that many of these men deliberately target inexperienced girls as they know they will be flustered and not know what to do, which makes it more fun.

Certainly I had learnt by about 25 how to deal a bit better with all of this, and get rid of the less persistent ones. At 16 I was much more polite and didn't know what I was supposed to do to get rid of them. So I think there may be something there. Similar to the reason creepy men often target schoolgirls.

I have no idea SaF it's very odd.

It's also odd that it has come round to the idea that this situation actually doesn't happen. So someone starts a thread about something that has happened, lots of people say yes that's happened to me to it's very annoying. Then these other people come along and first talk about entirely different situations to the one everyone else is talking about, and then when it has been explained to them 52 times say "oh yes well that wouldn't be great but it never happens". It's odd.

I've been in situations where men have refused to go away and refused to take no for an answer, to the point where I've given a false name and phone number as it is the only thing they will accept me saying. I felt like shit doing it, but they literally had me cornered.

I've had to leave pubs where I've been quite happy, just because staying there has meant I haven't been left alone.

I've had to grab friends and get them to pretend to be my boyfriend in order to make men go away. In some situations I've even had to get them to have a go at the bloke before he will leave. (I've been very lucky to have some wonderful male friends who will look out for me in these situations)

I used to go hide in the girls toilets, until I discovered that certain men see that as an invitation and follow me in!

And you know what? I've done my very best to remain polite in all these situations. Even though these men haven't deserved it.

So what am I supposed to have done wrong in these situations? How is the blame mine? Are these poor delicate men who are only trying to be friendly?

"men's sense of entitlement in general?"

In general, men have a sense of entitlement (to 'have' a woman)?

"men who are drunk and behave inappropriately are becoming the norm of male social behaviour."

It is normal male behaviour to be drunk and behave inappropriately?

I love the way people get massively offended and pedantic when someone makes even the tiniest point that they construe as anti-feminist, but comments like those above sail past without anyone saying a word.

Going out in the evening in the UK, most women will have experienced the things you cite Jenny.

It is not to say that all men are like that (obviously), but that enough are like that to make it worth talking about.

OH gawd I hate this. Two particular times stick in my mind:

(1) In a bar catching up with an old friend I hadn't seen for ages (female) - group of 3 men approached us wanting to join us (my friend is particularly stunning, me not so! They wanted to ask her if she was a model, a polite no, oh you should be, no, what do you work as?, journalist, my mate works at a model agency he could get you on their books, no I'm happy with my job thanks, after 15 minutes of this 'banter' and monosyllabic answers from my friend, I finally got the guts up to say Look we just want to chat could you leave us alone please? We get a barrage of abuse (me loads about how they weren't talking to me, I'm too ugly to be a model, friend is a stuck up bitch she couldn't really be a model etc) Anyway unpleasant enough and then Monday morning I get into the lift at work and it's one of the blokes harassing us - he works at my company! Could barely look at me but once I caught his eye and so I said hello oh you work here too, well isn't that nice, do you want to repeat any of your comments you made to me Thurs night in the lift in front of your work colleagues? Got a shifty no before he hopped out the lift.

(2) Had to jump out of a cab (moving in v slow traffic, no Indiana Jones-style roll necessary) because the cab driver just did not want to take no for an answer to a 'date' and after many polite responses I realised I couldn't keep it up for a further 20 minutes (rest of journey) and I suddenly felt v scared that he would lock car doors and i was vulnerable so took my shoes off, left the fare on the back seat and did a runner. Reported him to his cab office, but even then I am so conditioned to feel 'bad' I felt guilty that he might lose his job because of it - but to him what was 'banter' or persistence had actually become threatening to me.

But yes, generally and annoyingly (re needing to point to another male 'owner' of you) the quickest way to get these type of men to back off is to refer to a husband or boyfriend, but I always feel like I've taken the easy option out esp when I lie when I've been single. Why is No thanks regarded as an invitation to further pestering?

Have plenty of male friends who would not do this and would regard it as harassment.

BBQ Hilarious that you met the guy in the lift. I'd have loved to have seen his face!! Sorry for giggling, both unpleasant stories.

'The overall theme is that when a woman tells a man to go away he should just do so because she said so. wtf?!
Would you go away just because a man told you to? Or would you feel a bit: 'hang on, I'm only talking to you? I'm doing no harm'. '

Yes, I would go away. I've already said this twice. Which bit do I need to repeat very slowly for you?

It is revealing that the women on this thread who are most vocally in support of men's entitlement to keep talking where they're not wanted ... are from women who enjoy trolling the feminist boards despite having no discernible interest in feminism.

Fly

I'm not anti-feminist and I don't slag off feminists. I offer an alternative point of view, which most people interpret as being 'slagging off' and being part of an 'agenda' because they hate anything which contradicts the intellectual orthodoxy of the environment - in this case the MN feminism pages. My second to last post is this in a nutshell; whilst many of the issues are perfectly valid (ie aggressive sexual harrasment) the statements can often be completely unchecked and contain many errors and assumptions and, actually, a general sexism against men. This is not what feminism should be about; I believe that feminism can often become 'them and us' and divisive and be actively self-defeating as a result.

If you want an example of the throw-away and inaccurate generalisms look at the Tracey Edwards thread which is based on an assumption that women receive harsher custodial sentences. This simply isn't true, but it's amazing to me how many people just unthinkingly accept it.

The usual criticism that comes back at me is that feminism can't be sexist because we live in a patriarchy (nonsensical, I think) or that if you don't support feminism (as esposed by the critic) you have no right to an opinion on the subject (equally nonsensical)

A question for you. Why did you report (obviously, by all accounts) the person who you didn't agree with earlier in this thread?

jenny Those are pretty tame compared to friends' experiences - I think now, having got older and wiser I would not even put up with it for 15 minutes. My radar is now alert to someone being chatty as opposed to someone thinking they are going to bully me into going on a date, having a drink with them etc. There is a vast difference, and no, I would not think I was being rude to say, you know what, I was enjoying myself before you came along could you please go away - however, you can start off as polite as you like and to some men this is either seen as a red flag to start attacking you verbally or even as a sign of encouragement. I think for those men it is most definitely because they think how dare a woman refuse to talk to me, I want to talk to her, therefore I am entitled to talk to her whatever her wishes are. Indicates much deeper issues with women for them.

Unless the person actually was the owner of the space in which I was standing or a person who had authority to ask me to move away i.e. a policeman/woman, I would stand there and not go away. I probably would not engage with the person who asked me to go away, but I would stand my ground out of principle. Fuck 'em. Why should I leave where I happen to be standing because someone else does not like it?
The trouble is that some of the posters here are so up themselves and precious that they think if they say to a bloke 'I don't want to talk to you' that bloke should just go and live on the other side of the world.

You really should not automatically assume that just because a man continues to exchange small talk with you and does not vamoosh from your vicinity that he is out to rape you or anything-maybe he is just thinking, 'why should I leave the bar area because YOU say so?'

"I probably would not engage with the person who asked me to go away"

But you'd stop talking to them if they didn't want to talk to you?

We don't care if they stay/go/whatever, just stop trying to get us to date/sleep with them when we've said we aren;t interested!!

wamster If you asked someone out or asked someone to sleep with you, and they said no, would you;

a) accept their answer as "no"
b) assume they actually meant "yes"
c) keep asking them, over and over
d) follow them around when they tried to walk away

Actually, I think it is some of the posters here who have a massive sense of entitlement- the entitlement to tell other people to leave the area where they are standing, just because they don't like it.

No one is talking about people leaving the area. Just not continuing to harass them.

Kudos for continuing to try and have a reasoned discussion with the trolls.