Some men really hate women being single don't they?

[solidgoldbrass]

inspired by a couple of other threads including the separatism one. Have you ever noticed that if a man you don't like or know or fancy is trying to persuade you to date him or spend time with him or even just talk to him, the only really effective way to make him fuck off is to tell him that you are another man's property. Just saying No, leave me alone, no thanks, actually I am having a conversation with my female friend and am not interested in talking to you, never seems to work until you throw in My Boyfriend or My Husband.

Jenny stop pretending that you believe Krikri's post implied that she thinks young boys should be taught to be entitled.

No one will believe that you're that thick, you're overplaying it now.

'You shouldn't go to a club and not expect to occasionally have to talk to someone and maybe even be civil to someone you don't like too much - you have every right to expect the behaviour of the guy chatting you up to be reasonable, of course, but it is, after all, a nightclub.'

So women should expect men to intrude on their night out. And that they might not take no for an answer - 'but it is, after all, a nightclub'

You seem quite judgy about male behaviour Jenny.

No ADC, I don't think they did say it. They made some rash excuses for it, but they didn't say that it was perfectly ok or that it was different if men did it. Implying you have to put up with a certain amount is not to say that it's perfectly acceptable. Why am I defending Warmster all of a sudden - I didn't even agree with Warmster?

VG when I said rewrite, I meant subsequently changing the meaning; I meant the deliberate, derogatory and desultory tone you ised first time around.

HB Are you saying that you don't want to talk about the points that I just raised? I seem to remember from last time that when it all gets a bit much for you, you resort to personal attack. Ok, whatever. If you don't want to talk about it that's up to you.

What personal attacks?

Oh the one about being thick.

Well you have to concede that pretending to believe that Krikri's post implies that boys should be taught a sense of entitlement, would come across as thick in a normal poster.

jennyvstheworld Wed 03-Aug-11 16:15:06

So KRIKRI you think that we should teach boys that they, in the real world, are entitled? Do you see the problem here?

I think it's important to be honest with ALL young people, which includes explaining that historically, politically, culturally, etc., some human beings are regarded as of more value than others. That's the starting point for exploring injustice and why it's wrong.

I mean, would you suggest teaching kids about WWII, but leaving out any reference to Nazi anti-semitism, lest the gentile kids think it's okay to mistreat the Jewish kids?

No of course he wouldn't, he'd realise that everyone would notice that it was a stupid thing to say and therefore not take him seriously.

Hey, at least you're visible.

He? Another assumption. But, of course, I must be... What ethnicity am I, just out of interest?

Ok, so we have our class of 49% Jewish and 49% Gentile (allowing for 2% not knowing who they really are inside at that point)...

How does it go? What potential hazards are there here? What might happen if we don't manage this extremely sensitively? Does history affect our attitudes to Israel and Palestine?

Do we manage the issue of sexual equality extremely sensitively in schools? How about in wider society? Does history affect our attitudes to men and women?

I didn't change the meaning of my posts: you just don't like them.

VG

Jenny - I absolutely detest the idea that we should be thinking of all men as potential rapists.

Charitygirl - Fine - if the word 'rapist' is uncomfortable, swap it for 'dickhead'.

So, YES, I know that for the most part we are talking about SOME men being dickheads. Thanks for pointing out what we already all knew and had acknowledged and being a little bit patronising about it as well. Great... moving on.

There was a discussion stemming from the kateharding blog as to whether one should protect oneself by viewing all men as rapists (or dickheads) until they prove otherwise; I don't like this, Charitygirl thinks it's wise. That's the conversation, the one you missed. Don't worry, Empusa missed it too - and even went to the trouble of googling the word 'some' for me. So helpful, some people....

I didn't 'miss' anything, I referred to it in my second post to you. Statistically, it is wiser for women to assume that men they meet are capable of rape, and it is up to men to demonstrate behaviours that they are safe.

It's not patronising to re-iterate a point that someone is omitting, either accidentally or on purpose. You have criticised feminism for a lack of academic rigour, yet you ignore the compelling statistics cited in the blog and take criticisms of your approach as personal attacks.

That's not what the blog said. Once again, do you understand the Schrodinger reference?

I have lost the thread a bit here.

When I went out, there were a load of people saying that they didn't like it when men approached them in pubs, clubs and other situations and wouldn't leave them alone. Men who would pester, follow, cajole, harrass and annoy, when they have been told in no uncertain terms to go away.

Wamster was busy saying that basically this was fine as long as no crime was committed, like putting your hand up someone's skirt (that example featured heavily for some reason). An odd response, and one that many were vigorously arguing with.

There was a bit of a discussion about how some men feel entitled to do this sort of thing and how it's all a bit shit.

So far so good.

Now all of this. Jenny what are you on about? I can't for the life of me see how your posts relate to the thread.

The point in my OP that I think annoyed me the most is that knobbo men cannot accept that women enjoy each other's company ie women, if in a small all-female group Or just two women talking together, are going to get men barging in.
Women do not, on the whole, march up to a handful of men who are having a chat about football or cars or whatever and say 'You look like you need a bit of female company' and keep on hanging around and tryin to muscle into the conversation.
If a woman did that, the men would tell her to fuck off, or laugh at her, and that would be seen as fine and she would be seen as the one in the wrong.
But if a man interrupts a group of women and they tell him to fuck off, they are seen as rude, bitchy, dykes, feminists etc..

ELNP The cat may or may not be dead, the man may or may not be a rapist. Everything that I have said concerns the validity of taking the attitude that a man may or may not be a rapist. I stated that a black youth in a hoody may or may not be a mugger to compare and contrast the same decision and mindset with an alternative context - one in which I would hope you would agree expresses a certain racism on the part of the person expressing it. This is exactly what the blog is about and exactly what I am taking issue with and, as I posted last time, you are exactly avoiding the discussion by insinuating that I am missing the point or don't understand. I answered your last post and you have replied only with 'once again...' as if you think you have me in some corner.

If that's not what you think the blog said, please enlighten me.

Well, Orangehat discussions more on... I agree with what you said, so there's little point in adding to it. Maybe Warmest et al would continue in that vein, but they are not here are they?

What came up was a discussion about whether the actions of these few should prejudice one's handling of the majority. This is, of course, a wider discussion than some knob in a disco.

"What came up was a discussion about whether the actions of these few should prejudice one's handling of the majority."

Well no, you've decided that that is what you want to talk about and are keen to move the discussion on to that topic, using whatever means you can.

Meanwhile, I still quite happy talking about arseholes in pubs. As SGB appears to be.

SGB I totally agree. I don't understand why men do this. (SOME men, obviously). This thing of barging into situations where it is obvious they are not going to be welcome and then refusing to leave. And then then when they do finally get the message (if they ever do) the whole sulking / aggression / swearing at you thing. It's such bollocks and it used to happen to me all the bloody time, made me so angry.

SGB All of which I agree with... although there is a potential argument that if you're in a nightclub it is usual to meet and talk with complete strangers. Each club has a different atmosphere and one would choose to go to different clubs for different things. Personally I hate clubs now as I can't hear a word anyone says to me (going a bit deaf I think) and I look a bit silly dancing. I'm therefore normally in a sit-down sort of place - and there it would be a bit odd if someone came and joined the group. In a 'meat-market' standing-up club though, well, I'd expect it - and that may be why people go there. Why would you go there if you don't want to do what the place is intended for? Of course, none of this is to say that there is any entitlement or that anyone who thinks there is isn't a knobba. Everything's a spectrum and what applies in one place, doesn't apply somewhere else.

Oh well, do excuse me Orangehat. I didn't realise. I thought this was a public forum where one could follow where the conversation went. If you want to post the same point over and over again, you're entirely within your rights to demand that anyone going off topic should immediately desist.

Are you also going to reprimand Herbex et al when they come back or have you just decided that it's me you don't like? (I think you'll find we were all guilty)

Why do people who are determined to have an argument on this thread keep going on about nightclubs?

Jenny, you and Wamster are the only people on this thread who keep insisting that it's all about nightclubs. It's all a bit odd.

For the last time ^this happens in pubs all the time. sit down places. you are sitting there having a conversation with a friend quietly and a bloke or 2 comes and sits with you and won't go away".

Why this insistence that everyone is talking about nightclubs of the "meat market" variety it is peculiar and makes me wonder whether people are bothering to actually read any of the posts (including the OP).

You can talk about what you like Jenny, it's just a bit weird to read a series of posts which are basically unrelated to anything anyone on the thread has been talking about, desperately trying to push a conversation in one direction with everyone else standing around scratching their heads in confusion.

"What came up was a discussion about whether the actions of these few should prejudice one's handling of the majority. "

I don't remember any posts saying that it should.

Additionally, if you'd read my posts you'd see that I just said it was all a bit odd if it was anywhere other than a nightclub and that the knobbas would be extra special knobbas where this was the case. My point was that there are varying levels...

Let me spell that out again... It might be excusable to chat someone up in a nightclub, but frankly it's a little bit odd out of that context. If I agree with what you say, I've nothing further to add. It's correct, I agree. Nothing more to say. Perhaps you just want to talk about things where everyone agrees and stays strictly within the confines of the OP? That's up to you, of course, but there's not a lot to be gained from it is there?

Please enlighten me as to how you wan this forum to run because I clearly didn't get your memo.

It's not saying that the man may or may not be a rapist.

'There was a discussion stemming from the kateharding blog as to whether one should protect oneself by viewing all men as rapists (or dickheads) until they prove otherwise.'

It's saying that all men are an unknown quantity. Some are a danger to women, some are not. And we have no idea which are which because they don't come with warning labels. We can only judge them by the evidence we see. So if a man approaches a woman when she is minding her own business and persists in trying to chat her up when she has expressed her wish to be left alone then we judge them on that.