Some men really hate women being single don't they?

[solidgoldbrass]

inspired by a couple of other threads including the separatism one. Have you ever noticed that if a man you don't like or know or fancy is trying to persuade you to date him or spend time with him or even just talk to him, the only really effective way to make him fuck off is to tell him that you are another man's property. Just saying No, leave me alone, no thanks, actually I am having a conversation with my female friend and am not interested in talking to you, never seems to work until you throw in My Boyfriend or My Husband.

"you are just a victim of thirty years of unchallenged feminist ideology"

What a lot of crap you talk.

We are surrounded by generally unchallenged anti-feminist ideology. We live in a patriarchy. I live in that world Jenny, not in some feminist Brave New World colony where we all run round in white dungarees and bovver boots.

You are just hostile to feminism and patronising enough to believe that anyone who identifies as a feminist, is too irrational to think properly.

Men always think they are the only ones who can think rationally and if a woman thinks differently from them, it's because she's not rational.

Has anyone answered my question about whether men are duty bound to tolerate boorish men muscling in on their nights out yet?

What assumptions do I have about all men Jenny?

You haven't answered that question

I'm out. Im sure you see this as a grand challenge, I see it as going over Feminism 101 with someone who isn't exactly open-minded. It's not my job to explain why the point of feminism isn't insisting that every women should have a tabula rasa about every man they meet.

Yes ADC, but I think we all agree that Warmster is being a little to soft on these idiots and I said so myself in my first post.

Equally, maybe the point was that you shouldn't go to a club and not expect to occasionally have to talk to someone and maybe even be civil to someone you don't like too much - you have every right to expect the behaviour of the guy chatting you up to be reasonable, of course, but it is, after all, a nightclub.

I'll answer HerBex! I have never seen a group of men tolerating a man they don't know/ consider a loser/ don't like. Admittedly most of my experience on this comes from school/ college but I have seen men ignored by others because they don't fit in, I've never seen anyone tolerate someone in order not to hurt their feelings.

So it is to be expected and accepted that, in a night club, men will approach woman and refuse to leave them alone when asked to? This is a desirable state of affairs?

If a man intrudes on your night out and ignores your request to leave you alone then how clean can his slate be?

Oh and btw Jenny, do you not agree that many men are raised with a sense of entitlement which says that they have the right to accost women and get a positive response?

Because most women have come across men who genuinely are outraged and angry if they tell them that they are not interested.

I recently had some young guy get really angry with me because I told him that actually, i wasn't interested in his proposition that I install him as my toyboy. He'd informed me that he was a marvellous lover and could "go all night". (Not the most cerebral approach, I think you'll agree.) I told him that although I had no doubt that was true, I really wasn't interested as he was too young for me. After he'd four or five times tried to convince me that I was missing out on a good thing, I gently pointed out to him that if a woman says no, he should respect that. At that, he got really angry - told me that I was really arrogant, I had no right to talk to him like that, "if it were the other way round you'd be really annoyed with me" etc. It was astonishing and quite depressing - he was only about 25 and so therefore it can't be put down to a generational thing - there is another generation of men who are being raised believing that they have the right to be listened to by a woman when she's made it crystal clear that she doesn't want to listen to them.

LOL Cleverthing

I always find the feminist section so informative and educational....

"We are surrounded by generally unchallenged anti-feminist ideology" - that isn't a contradiction of what I said though is it? There can be both. To say that the academic study of feminism is unchallenged by anyone other than sexist men is not to say that the world is not still primarily geared against women. IS IT?

"Men always think they are the only ones who can think rationally and if a woman thinks differently from them, it's because she's not rational." There's another assumption... (the third I've now pointed out for you if you're paying attention)

"Has anyone answered my question about whether men are duty bound to tolerate boorish men muscling in on their nights out yet?" No, because the answer is 'no'. Maybe even 'No, Duh!'. Stupid question that takes us nowehere...

"I'm out. Im sure you see this as a grand challenge, I see it as going over Feminism 101 with someone who isn't exactly open-minded. It's not my job to explain why the point of feminism isn't insisting that every women should have a tabula rasa about every man they meet." Or indeed do anything other than dismiss the questions, ignore the points and go hide in your little warm hole until the nasty person goes away. Isn't that exactly what I just said happens? No one goes over feminism 101 because it is all simply accepted as fact and anyone who challenges it is... I don't know, pick any one of the words that you've used to describe me even in the last hour.

So why, if men aren't expected to put up with bores Jenny, are women expected to?

Or are you arguing that Wamster is wrong?

And do you deny that many men have a sense of enormous entitlement vis a vis their interactions with women?

I have no idea what you're on about vis a vis academic feminism btw.

I'm not in academia and everyone around me challenges feminism. The only feminists I know are the ones on this board.

"Oh and btw Jenny, do you not agree that many men are raised with a sense of entitlement which says that they have the right to accost women and get a positive response?" I've previously ranted about ZOO and NUTS and all those others for doing exactly that. But where does it come from? Actually, my Dad, who was born in Liverpool and spent much of his teenage years working in the docks, was taught to respect women, that they were 'the weaker' sex and that they should be treated gently. Yes, I know how horrific this sounds, but the key was the respect. What do we teach boys now? I'd start by saying what do we teach boys about boys, not what do we teach them about women. I'd suggest that we teach them that they are boorish, aggressive, football and tit obssessed louts who don't do as well academically at school as girls. How do we think that then manifests itself? It ends up with 25 yr olds chatting up a woman in a club thinking that she's what he sees in FHM. If we can start teaching boys to respect themselves then I think you've got a better chance of them respecting women.

jenny, Pointing out that you haven't read the thread, in which multiple posters state multiple times that it is SOME men, is hardly sticking the boot in.

Neither is pointing out that the blog points out that, given the statistical presence of rapists in society (almost 1 out of every 60 men), women really should presume that all men are potential rapists until their behaviour proves otherwise.

It is not comparable to racism because, unlike racism and the actual statistics on crime and ethnicity (which don't seem to exist - I suspect racists might make them up) the statistics on rape stand up: if anything, they are woefully underinflated.

""Has anyone answered my question about whether men are duty bound to tolerate boorish men muscling in on their nights out yet?" No, because the answer is 'no'. Maybe even 'No, Duh!'. Stupid question that takes us nowehere... "

No, it's a good point. It shows a double standard. If men aren't expected to tolerate bores, then why should women?

"I have no idea what you're on about vis a vis academic feminism btw.

I'm not in academia and everyone around me challenges feminism. The only feminists I know are the ones on this board."

So the way that the behaviour of everyone around you is explained by some feminism is unchallenged. (social) Academia is all about explaining behaviour and in most regards there is a rigorous academic process. I believe that this process is not as robust, however, in this area. That means that feminism has grown without the dodgy bits weeded out as most other subjects have. All that is required is for it to be appealing for it to seem true - take religion. They can't all be right can they? And yet the followers of each religion fully belive in their version and see evidence for its veracity all around them. But, as I said, they can't all be true.

I agree at least that we should be encouraging (not teaching - it's not like maths times tables or a chemistry formula) young PEOPLE to have self-respect. I also agree that many PEOPLE diss other people because they think it's a short-cut to feeling better about themselves. I don't think that method is the preserve of one gender or the other though.

However, when working with young people and encouraging their self-esteem, self-respect, and positive regard for others, imho, you also need to explain that it ain't a level playing field out there. For historical, political, cultural, economic, etc. reasons, some groups of people have been viewed in society as being more valuable, more entitled, more privileged, more deserving of respect than others. That doesn't mean that individuals are inherently bad or good because the belong either to team privilege or team disadvantaged. It does mean that every person has a responsibility to question, to challenge and frankly not play ball with the mechanisms of power and control, to perpetuate oppression.

So, when you're working with young people, you can't pussy foot around issues like sexism, homophobia, class prejudice, able-bodied chauvinism, racism, etc. or it all becomes just pointless guff about, "now, we are all equal so we have to be nice to everyone, right boys and girls?"

"No, it's a good point. It shows a double standard. If men aren't expected to tolerate bores, then why should women?" BECAUSE NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD!!!!! Sometimes we all have to be polite to someone who goes on a bit. No one has to tolerate an excess though. Where, please ADC is someone saying that there are two different standards on this thread? Where? Please! Pretty please? I feel like i'm going mad here.

VG Don't rewrite your own posts.

Plus Why don't those statistics exist? They'd be very sensitive wouldn't they?

PEOPLE ARE. Have you read the thread? Wamster repeatedly said that women should tolerate it - that to turn men down is rude. Organicgardener said it.

I give up. this is like ramming my head against a brick wall.

So KRIKRI you think that we should teach boys that they, in the real world, are entitled? Do you see the problem here?

Wamster implied women should put up with it actually.

"So what" is his/ her response to an expression of irritation with it.

S/he also posted some stuff about saving face and pride.

Jenny you do a great line in not reading other people's posts properly.

Or deliberately misrepresenting them.

Like this game do you?

jenny Thanks for the advice, but I think it's necessary when someone isn't willing to acknowledge what you've written the first time around. One of your posts suggests that feminism hasn't had enough academic rigour applied to it, so I'm surprised you take such offence when someone requires it of you.

As for the statistics, I'm not the Office of National Statistics so I can't answer. I would assume that a bare list of criminals' ethnicity would simply be unhelpful when divorced from the socio-economic realities of why so much crime is committed.

wamster 'It is not their fault that the woman they are talking to has failed to tell them to go away. The fault is with the women themselves. It becomes the man's fault if he then fails to act on the fact that the woman has told him to go away.
There is a world of difference between being peeved and a bit annoyed that a bloke does not take the hint straightaway because he is a bit of a dud at body language (if he becomes abusive, it is different, I agree) and actually being assaulted.

You don't like men making a move on you? Don't go out then.Men are designed to chat up women and, as long as they are not abusive about it, that is fine. I might think, 'God, that guy is slow on the uptake, it took a lot to make him take the hint' but I won't think him a sex pest or anything."

Bluegrass
"We live in a world where only a relatively small percentage of desirable men can passively sit whilst women come to them to "audition" themselves as potential partners. The reality for most is that they are expected to make the initial approach and do the conversational running.

For many it takes time and effort to break through initial reluctance or feigned disinterest to "win" a positive response. It may all look very foolish but it is still a deeply engrained mating ritual, part of an unspoken game which both sides seem compelled to play. The downside is that many guys will lack social awareness to recognise a genuine negative response (as opposed to a mere test of their worthiness), or they will have developed too thick a skin from many rejections. Unfortunately the drive to find a mate is overwhelming for most creatures and society dictates that they must keep plugging away until they succeed.

I don't think it is all that surprising that some make a nuisance of themselves along the way. If women were expected to take the more active role there is a pretty good chance that more of them would be irritating guys with their advances.
.. but let's not pretend that for some there is a whole game to be played out (remember the Rules?). what might scream out entitlement to you might also be the result of a man knowing that if he fails to "act", to actually make something happen he might lose at life's great race to pass on his genes!"