Re the Norwegian deaths.

[archieleach]

Breivik is critical of the influence of women in his life saying: 'I do not approve of the super-liberal, matriarchal upbringing though as it completely lacked discipline and has contributed to feminise me to a certain degree.'
Both his mother and stepmother are described as feminists.

I wonder what connection he made in his mind?
What could have happened in his family?

"i think the more equality we have between men and women, the more violence will be commited by women." So you think that women will become more like men? Rather than less violence by men? Why is that?

The logic is simply that he targeted politically engaged young people associated with the Labour Party, who he blames for their multicultural immigration policies, according to his own words. I think it's tacky to try and make any justification for what he did, but FGS, at least base it in what are his known motives rather than just baselessly speculate. He didn't target women either.

But I don't see why that makes sakura's posts "worse". She isn't baselessly speculating either. She is stating that male dominance and violence are instrinsically linked. Male dominance has its roots in misogyny. I don't think that is speculation.

It is in poor taste, IMO, to use an atrocity like this to tub-thump about one's world view, especially merely days into the aftermath. Generally speaking on MN, the news of a tragic event is greeted initially at least with a thread which expresses condolence and sympathy for people who may be affected. Not ideological theorising. But if that's the direction people wish to take this, that's entirely up to them- I don't want to participate further.

HDS - (1) i did not comment on any change in male violence, only a change in violence in women. (2) i dont think violence is inherently male so for me to say more violence from women is not saying they are becoming more male.

HDS - also on 'male dominance and violence are instrinsically linked' for me, that sentence should read 'dominance and violence are instrinsically linked'

BoF - the OP started off this thread with huge speculation yet sakura's posts are worse? I can understand you not wanting join in, however. I also believe that there are other thread(s) offering condolences.

" i did not comment on any change in male violence, only a change in violence in women." That's why I asked the questions. There is no evidence that an equal society would be equal more female violence. For example, equal relationships don't tend to involve violence.

HDS - also on 'male dominance and violence are instrinsically linked' for me, that sentence should read 'dominance and violence are instrinsically linked'

No it shouldn't. We don't have female dominance, we have male dominance in society and men have used violence to become dominant.

Yes, HandDived- I made a mistake there and thought I was posting on the initial In The News thread, so apologies. I will also retract the "worse" comment- that guy is a knobber of the highest order.

Oh god that happens to me all the time saf! I am such a slow typer though! (Well I can type quickly but formulating thoughts takes some time!)

Ahh BoF - comprendez!

Sorry that meant to say I understand now what you were saying BoF (in case you were wondering about my use of dodgy foreign language).

I think we have to discuss what made him do this we have to understand so we can try to prevent (as far as possible) others from having the same distorted thoughts as this guy. And we have to understand so we can discredit his manifesto. In short we have to discuss him into irrelevance.

One of the posts on this thread alluded to the blame being put on mothers. In this case a mother who raised her son on her own (father not really in the picture much then not at all in this case - whether that is relevant or not I don't know but those are facts anyway) and may be seen as having "failed" in her job of raising him.

As a more encouraging story showing that she may not at all be vilified in Norway (whether she is abroad or not) may I draw your attention to the following Facebook page which was set up in support of Breiviks mother www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=133878510033038 yesterday. It got over 10 000 members in a few hours.

The text in the "more info" part, translated by me, says:

Dear Mother Behring,

In these devastating time, for you, and the rest of the nation, we in this support group would like you to know that we are thinking of you, you are also one of the bereaved. You have also been cruely effected, you are also one of the victims, you are also one of them who shall be met with more compassion, more love and more thoughts.

One of the entries on the wall says "from one mother to another mother" and signed with a heart.

I think that facebook page says a lot of the true nature of Norwegains, both men and women.

Why not show your support as feminists by becoming a member of this facebook group. The bigger it becomes the more clearly we can all make a stand against blame being placed on mothers.

PS: to Sakura's comments about handing him over to the mothers who have been bereaved of their dc's, what good will that do? That will only serve to demean their grief and would not exactly be in keeping with the values their children clearly stood for - democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Besides violence never discourages violence (otherwise the US would not have any murders in states where they execute surely).

sakura I never actually said you had issues with men, but I apologise for saying you seemed to have unresolved issues, I'm sure you have none.

I still think that stripping rapists down and throwing fruit at them (you did say this) is not effective punishment, they should have a long jail sentence.
Encouraging women to kill men (where you said mothers of rape victims should kill the perpetrator)...hmm, not something I'd condone. If you are SO against male violence why on earth are you insisting that women should retaliate in this way?

Of course I don't think men should walk free when they have commited awful crimes! Do you think I am part of the 'rapist-loving' population? Why are you so fixated on rape when this is the case of a mass murderer?

And it's competely understandable what the Spanish woman did, but was it right and ok to do what she did? Where would it stop, if it was the right thing, with someone in his family killing her for killing him, then another from her family coming back to kill someone from his for killing her...

handdived I worry about this too. The point I was trying to make, although it wasn't very clear, was that if he was let off lightly, it wouldn't be because he was a man. In fact, I think people tend to sympathise more with women in very public cases like this.

Of course, and my sympathy is with the woman and her child. It must be one of the most painful things you can go through and I can see why she did it.

But maybe this man's family loved him (even if it's difficult to see why) and would see killing her as justice. After all, wouldn't you feel the same if someone had killed your son/brother/etc?

It's also very possible, likely even, that this woman needed to be in a psychiatric hospital for psychological evaluation. It's not as if she's got a lifetime prison sentence.

The thing I really have a problem with is sakura insisting that violence is the answer for violence. It just doesn't make sense.

I agree with your last post swallowed. I never thought I'D be the kind of person who thought that killing was the answer to anything

however,

egging on the egos of these monsters and letting them out of jail after 20 odd years just AIN'T working, and as we have seen, it just encourages more and more and more of these utter cowards to have a go at mass killing sprees themselves.

the system. ain't. working. It's just protecting men, and I don't think it's too far-fetchedat this stage in the game to say that that's exactly what the patriarchal police and court system is for: to stop women avenging the deaths and rapes of their children.

if I have to choose between these scumbags and the lives of yet another group of kids then I'll have to go for the latter

The day after the Norwegian massacre a bloke- yes another man-- in Texas gunned down 6 people in a roller rink.

Men massacring women and kids happens all the fricken time, it's only when they hit over the 20 body mark we hear about it and then it's all " oh it must be his mother's fault" and "poor bloke couldn't get a girlfriend so understandably he was driven to it" ( this is what the papers are citing as "possible motives" for that Norwegian guy. I don'T even want to learn his name)

BitOfFUn,
of all the things I've ever been accused of on here (being mad etc) I think "having an agenda" has got to be the weirdest one.
WTF could my agenda possibly be when I provide hard evidence to show that these men are misogynists? And that the male supremist ideology which is a basic tenet of their philosophies is NEVER reported in the press. It is always overlooked or passed off as religious fanaticism (well all religions are misogynistic), or racism (racism wouldn't exist without misogyny because the subordination and "othering" of women by society is the basis for "othering" other groups of people.)
So YES I have an agenda if you want to put it like that. My agenda is to get people to see how the media and society is complicit in these men's crimes.

"They (well at least his lawyer) is trying to write off ?this norwegian guy? as insane etc.

Well, of course. That's his job. He is not endorsing his client's actions or political philosophy, he's defending him in court. Which is as it should be, in a liberal democracy.

I agree that the killer sounds like a misogynist, and the 'mummy's boy' label is horrific (why is no one criticsing his father for playing little or no part in his son's life from a fairly early time? Mum didn't have much choice but to step in, did she?).

However, it is only a facet of this man's dysfunction. We just can't know how significant a part it was. Nor can we say how much of his warped worldview is a particularly extreme form of a well-known patriarchal, white supremacist culture and how much is the expression of some individual issue suc as a personality disorder.

And why speculate, until we know more? Or at all? no doubt the trial process will reveal more of how he turned into such an appalling man and why he committed such a revolting crime.

Even your own son? You wouldn't even feel sad and angry he had died a painful, horrible death, so much that it wouldn't even cross your mind? Fair enough, you'd be a better person that me but other people feel differently and they might hunt the woman down if someone had killed someone in their family, that's the problem. They would be making the worst decision but if someone thinks what she did is acceptable, it doesn't just end there, with her and him.

Pain isn't logical. No matter how awful a person is, you just can't go about killing them. Sentencing is definitely too light but it's not just women and children who deserve harsher sentences.
I know there would be a great deal of vigilantism going on. That's my point.

Meant they deserve harsher sentences as victims, sorry it's not clear.

'(why is no one criticsing his father for playing little or no part in his son's life from a fairly early time? Mum didn't have much choice but to step in, did she?).'

He was apparently the subject of a custody battle which the mother won.