Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

True saf

well i dont watch the telly Riven-
but i cant be that much a predujuiced misandrist[who needs help]as i let my children watch telly!!
how do others percieve the way you live?

riven, I'm really interested by what you said earlier about the mix of feminist and religious motives. Do you mind me asking about that? If it's private please don't be offended. I was wondering, do you think you've changed in the way you think or talk as a result of making parts of your life woman-only/dominated by women?

(Btw, if you like Angel, are you a fan of Bones too? I like both!)

Probably lrd. I dont over analyse
and i dont have to listen to lame sexist jokes or get called 'love'.
But my religion and being a feminst define who i am and what i do day to day

Not seen Bones. I like the humour in Angel and Buffy

I live to over-analyse!

I just wondered - I remember someone saying on here when I'd just joined that sometimes the gradual effect of language is wearing, the fact women are often left out by the use of a pronoun or a term like 'mankind' that refers to both but only explicitly to men - I was thinking maybe being outside of male company would have an effect.

I wish we talked more about religion and feminism on here - for some people I know the answer is simple 'religion is patriarchical therefore it has nothing to contribute', but I get frustrated with that!

Bones is funny, but not the same humour as Angel/Buffy. DB is more adult and skilful as an actor though, I think.

So on can be a practising Muslim and a feminist separatist?

I have heard it all.

You really think either feminists or religious people are some homogenous group all the same crPola. Im vegan too. And i smoke.
Shock horror

(Riven: how about firefly? Firefly fan?)
Ahem. Am big derailery derailer. Sorry.

From my (weak and 10 years ago) studies in Medieval Women's writing, life in a convent was often seen as a positive, affirmatory thing to do. It freed women from the VERY real threat of dying in childbirth, (and to a certain extent protected them from the threat of rape, though not completely) and they were able to live in a female-only space in which they could potentially rise to positions of authority.
I had a friend in that class who was an angry ex-catholic who kept insisting that religion was ONLY a repressive and anti-woman force, but the women themselves thought otherwise. Specially some of the splendid nutters like Margery Kempe and Julian of Norwich, who (IIRC) had a vision of being breastfed by Jesus.
The way I saw it was, if you're going to be subject to one of various oppresive forces, why not pick the one that allows you the most degree of autonomy and the least chance of dying in childbirth?

Lots of women also used to do what some of these modern separatists do - they didn't take vows as nuns but they just went to live in or beside convents so they could interact with the nuns and withdraw from the rest of life.

I think people still go on retreats, don't they? Even non-religious ones ... I wonder if living as a full separatist would be a bit like that.

(Btw: Firefly?! You can't possibly be a feminist muslim and a fan of firefly! )

Surely even a seperatist would have to go shopping. Or is any interaction with men out? Are there degrees?

LRD you can't possibly be a sexual being and not have at least a teensy crush on at least ONE member of the firefly cast. Or several.

Ahem. Where was I? Oh yes. Proper thoughts.

Riven in the article someone linked to on the first page the separatist community had men come in and do stuff (work) quite a bit. They also said (on the audio slideshow) that of course people had sons and grandsons to come and stay - after all, it was their house to host whomever they pleased. It was more that they didn't live there and/or run the place, that mattered.

I'm married, blackcurrants, I don't think I'm a sexual being any more.

But, yes, I wouldn't kick Adam Baldwin out of bed, no.

Haven't caught up on the thread yet, but the arguments around 'some' men or 'all' men - how dare you generalize? - are encapsulated in this, possibly anti-French, blog-post.

buticansing.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html

Second post down: Foxhunting

As a further thought experiment, what reaction do you think a man might expect if he proposed to raise a child in a male space, restricting any contact with women? I suspect his choice would be considered a social failure on his part, his motives would probably be suspected and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the plan was condemned as downright cruel to the child (particularly if the child was a daughter). I can't imagine it going down at all well!

I don't see why, blue? Single fathers are often treated with much more respect than single mothers, for a start.

Seems to me there's great confusion around 'the personal is political', and a workable definition of sexism. Like racism, the usual definition is prejudice + power. So clearly, women as a group have no power. The definition of prejudice is to pre-judge before seeing any evidence. Seeing the evidence in our society, over 2 women a week killed by male partners, 20% suffer dv, 25% suffer rape, this isn't prejudice - it's judgement after we've seen the evidence. The thing of personal 'private' issues like sex, housework, childcare, becoming issues addressed in the public political sphere. Political demands can then be made for eg provision of abortion on demand, women's refuges etc. Even more importantly, we get to understand why we live through this shit. Not personal, about this specific man, but opolitical - about men, masculinity and sexism as systemic oppression.

Riven, I'm not sure how to process your lifestyle ( sorry - can't articulate!) I can't be the only feminist that likes men, enjoys their company? Not all men, of course. I don't like all women, after all but I do generally, enjoy being with men. I'm not sure if that is because they usually react and interact favourably ( I'm tall, slim, quite attractive apparently) but I find that it is rare that Ii have an interaction with a man that is negative or patronising or leaves me feeling uncomfortable.

I wonder if age has something to do with it? I'm late forties.

It is an interesting concept - however, I have two sons so I wouldn't (or really want to) live in a female only commune until they are 18yrs. However, I also have real difficulty with the thought that my boys wouldn't ever be able to "come home" as an adult just for the night or even if they lost their job or a relationship breakdown. This probably explains why the patriarchy has been so successful as we keep producing male children.

However, if DH was to die I don't think I would bother remarry or live with another man.

Between my 12th and 18th birthday I lived almost exclusively in a male environment. A boys boarding school with no female staff apart form one secratary and a nurse and then in holidays on a remote farm where I worked mainly with my father. I had relatively little contact with my sisters or mother and none at all with other women or girls.

A single sex environment has its own rules and its not always a pleasant utopia. Women who have been to girls boarding school will testify to that.

There are people on this thread who clearly don't like men so a man free world may seem attractive but having grown up in an essentially woman free environment I am in no doubt that a community that appreciates and builds on the unque talents and perspectives of both sexes would always be a far stronger and viable one.

I am shocked and saddened that women feel they would want to have no contact with men. Especially those that have male children.

' Women who have been to girls boarding school will testify to that. '

Rushes up to testify.