Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Morebeta.Exactly.

'shocked and saddened' - after what some people have suffered surely 'not surprised' would be a more logical reaction, MoreBeta

MoreBeta are we reading the same thread?? Virtually everyone on this thread has explicitly said that they wouldn't be able to live a completely separatist type of life either because they have sons or because they are married or because it isn't for them. Even the people saying that they actively avoid some men in their life live with sons/husbands. Nobody has suggested that they would ever abandon their children and I think (although I wouldn't want to speak for everyone) that everyone who has sons couldn't imagine life without them.

This is generally a theoretical discussion about how it may work and whether it would achieve anything, interspersed with some personal stories of how some women cope with the crap that has been thrown at them.

Agree SinicalSal.

SinicalSal - shocked and saddened that we have a society where some women feel they need go out of the way to avoid all men in their day-to-day life. It must make life exceptionally difficult at times, cut off certain job opportunities, limit opportunities for social interaction. The normal things most people enjoy.

HandDived - I just wanted to comment from the perspective of my RL experience of having lived important formative years where I was actively prevented from having any significant contact with women. In essence, I lived the flip side of what would happen if all women chose to live in single sex communes.

Just to follow on from the living separate from men. I'm wondering how that does or would work financially? Would being supported by a man be acceptable? Would you work and therefore work with men and so not be separatist?
Or would you rely on the benefits system which is, presumably, part paid for by men and integral to the patriarchy?

Lots of very interesting thoughts being thrown up here!

Inspired by this thread, I've just watched the 'Angry Wimmin' documentary on You Tube. It's excellent - highly recommend if you haven't seen it.

ArmChair - good question. I was thinking about the practicalities too. In general, closed communities are only economically viable if they have either an endowment of land so they can grow food and fuel or an endowment of cash so they can buy what they need. Same goes for individuals. Living a completely separate life from the rest of society is possible, but only for people who are prepared to live either in fairly strict poverty or if they have inherited or accumulated wealth before cutting themselves off.

It might be possible to do it by working over the internet but even there you are connected to other people. On the internet, you can't even be sure who you are talking to.

Armchair, i enjoy my sons company and my husbands. That suffices for me. I had male friends years ago and there was always sexual undertones. Now i am much more comfortable with women day to day and in the majority of situations. I dont think thats weird.
Im 42.

You didn't live the flip side, MoreBeta, because you say you were 'actively prevented' from contact with the opposite sex. Separatism does not advocate enforced separation; it is driven by women's choice.

Interesting stuff, aliceliddel and those discussing separation and religion.

See, I quite like the sexual undertones

Seriously, we are sexual beings. You don't act on it but a nice smile from a nice man, fair warms the cockles does that.

I don't think it's weird at all to prefer the company of women but it's certainly unusual to actively avoid the company of men.

Sorry, when i chat to friends I dont want sexual undertones or my sexual appearnacebeing considered. I want to be listenend too as a person and my opinions considered as a human. Not flirting.

Seen that 'forehead tittaes' video on youtube?

No, I hear you Riven.

But I find that men never comment to women about their appearance but as women, my girlfriends and I constantly praise and compliment each other, touch each other,hug, kiss and discuss what we are wearing, how we look.

I am far more careful dressing for an evening with my girlfriends than in mixed or male company. Probably because men will think, " Ooh, tight jeans - nice" and women will say, " Ooh, love those jeans where are they from? Are they a size 10?"

{grin]

MoreBeta - I think you may be misunderstanding how so many of us have ended up with lifestyles approaching seperatism. I am not driven by ideology. I have only had one bad experience with men out of the many I have known (which actually makes me statistically quite fortunate). However, the fact is that for what I require out of my life at the moment, the only two males who can offer me anything I need or want are my son and my boss. If more men had something to offer I would let more in. And it's not even that I'm surrounded by assholes, because I'm not, it's just that my lifestyle and that of most mens' has little to offer each other.

I hear what you are saying SAF, and that situation is always a disappointment when you thought someone was a friend.

Though was just thinking about the fact sunshine has mentioned her supportive boss, as have I about colleagues.

In this context I have had solid, reliable, friendly support in the context of a relationship that is strictly non sexual, and absolutely not in the interest of the men to try to change that...so I do think there is opportunity for men and women to have enriching non sexual friendships. It may need rules around it, like work....but it is still possible.

Oh yes snowmama I totally believe that it's possible for men and women to have completely platonic friendships. I had one for a 10-year-period before he moved to a different country and we eventually lost touch. We were very close indeed but there was never anything sexual in it for either of us.

I have two perfectly platonic male friendships now, too, though I rarely see them due to distance and lifestyle.

However, for those three genuine cases there have been many more when a male 'friend' has definitely had designs on it becoming something else and the friendship has slipped away once I've made it clear it's not going to happen. I often wonder whether this irritates men who offer friendship genuinely as much as it irritates women who feel disappointed by a man who has false intentions. Society positively encourages us to believe that it's impossible to have platonic friendships, that everything always boils down to sex. I think it's very sad.

My own personal theory on friendship and gender is that a woman can have a closer friendship with a man than a woman if the man in question is much more in keeping with her values, attitudes and outlook. For example, I will get on much better with a man interested in the same things as me than I will a woman who is into celebrity lifestyles or whatever. However, because gender influences lifestyle I think it is easier to find points of reference with your own gender. For women these often centre around motherhood - witness MN for a start. . I think that's why most of us tend to have more friends of the same gender as ourselves. I think this is backed up by the number of women who say they have more male friends than female and then mention that they work in male-dominated environments. I would hope that as society becomes less gendered, we see an increasing number of male/female friendships.

Yes, lots I agree with there sunshine. Would be great if real valued platonic friendships were the norm.

Sorry, SAF xposted...yes, interesting point about intimacy.

Just realised my platonic friendships are very honest/open...bit not at all intimate...now I am not sure if I am making sense!

No that makes perfect sense to me SaF. I think it explains very well why cross-gender friendships are unusual. You're not saying they're impossible, just rare, which I'd agree with as my own personal experience bears that out.

My curiosity would love to find out how much male friendship is negatively affected by the sexual attraction vibe simply because we live in a society where men are actively encouraged to size up any women they come across in terms of how attractive she is. If we got rid of that cultural norm would more platonic friendships blossom as a result?

ANyway, great to hear you had a sociable night. Me too. Needless to say, a female one.