Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Making themselves look like a nob is a subjective judgment, what seems nobbish to you might seem cheekily and charmingly gregarious to another. I don't suppose that nobbishness is exactly what they were aiming for.

While I've been out I've seen plenty of people behaving in what is nobbish behaviour by my standards, and yet it clearly seems to work for them judging by the way the evening develops. With sufficient positive reinforcement why would they change a tactic that works for them (especially if they are not that socially gifted). Until they spoke to you they may well have thought that you were one of those people who would respond positively, I'm sure you disabused them of that notion pretty swiftly!

Could we also have separatist communities for nice blokes who also don't want to be threatened or beaten up by the arseholes, or are we stuck with them because we share a penis (not literally share you understand).

I suppose if we can't just judge them by penile ownership we will need something else to go on, perhaps something that tells us about their character rather than simply their chomosonal makeup. Perhaps if they proved themselves to be arseholes by committing some sort of crime...

We could build our separatist communities behind protected walls with barbed wire and guards, and then if someone committed a crime they would be forced outside the protected community, away from civilised society for a period of time (the length of which would be proportional to the seriousness of their offence).

Seems perfectly logical to me. What greater freedom could we have than behind those walls.

MoreBeta (I think you're a man, apologies if not, and this post will be weird), I cannot understand the rationale behind your thinking at all.

It's not up to me, as a straight individual who benefits from all the privilege that comes with that, to tell gay or lesbian people all the ways in which they are 'allowed' to negotiate their way through a heteronormative culture.

Similarly, it's not up to you, a beneficiary of male privilege, to tell women all the ways in which they are 'allowed' to negotiate their way through a patriarchal culture.

The exclusion of straights from gay/lesbian spaces, or men from women's spaces, is not the same as gay/lesbian people or women being banned. Because 'male space' and 'straight space' = 'everyday space'.

It's just not the same thing at all. At all!

Nesbo, there are plenty of men who don't meet patriarchal standards of 'man-ness' who negotiate their own safe spaces: gay men are probably the most obvious example. There are very real problems when these safe spaces are collapsed - when a gay man is sent to prison, for example, and thus has no option of avoiding this kind of 'man-ness' that is dangerous for him.

Lenin - this is a theoretical discussion so I feel 'safe' to talk about society as a whole. You and others are coming from a narrower viewpoint. Hence our disagreement.

I would not disagree with a woman wanting to go into a nunnery after taking a vow of chastity, to some extent I can see a positive arguement for single sex education for girls, obviously there are very good reasons why womens' refuges exist that exclude men, I know a woman that likes to go on retreat to an exclusively female environment for a few weeks, some women want to visit all women health clubs and even have a 'girly night out' that excludes men. No problem with any of that.

To summarise my objection. I do not want to see any part of the society I live in and my children will live in after I have gone broken up into communes/groups that exclude other people. If there are reason why women and other minority groups feel they want to exclude other members of society then I want to know if those reasons are real or just prejudice and I want society, as a whole to deal with those reasons. The answer for me is not to exclude oneself through fear or ignorance or prejudice.

A good society that works well for all its members doesn't work as a collection of exclusive little groups that view each other with hostility and suspicion. I feel hostility and suspicion behind a lot of the posts on this thread and I feel sad about that. I would like society to work to remove that hostility and suspicion and not pander and cultivate it. I feel communes of any sort do exactly that, tend to and increase conflict and reduce understandiong. Thety are a bad thing for that reason.

That is all I am saying.

Society is made up of lots of different communities. The area in which I live has a very different community feel than say inner-city London for example. This applies not just in terms of local culture but also in terms of demographics. Again, the county I live in is notable for the disproportionate number of elderly living here.

There are social norms that apply to all, but no one community is the same as another. Why then would a female-only commune be so very different? The only difference I can see would be that it was engineered to be so, rather than becoming so over time.

Also, I don't see that preference necessarily equates to exclusion and therefore prejudice. Most people's lives change over time. I see the number of women living in a female-only commune from birth to death to be very small and insignificant. Before or after that time they will be working/socialising with men, breaking down barriers and keeping communication open. I think it's a mistake to assume that women would be attracted to a female-only commune only because of fear or loathing, and that therefore these traits would flourish.

For the women who areso badly scarred that they choose separatist communities so that they need never interact with men ever again well, they could cut themselves off from the male population even in a normal community, though it would undoubtedly be more difficult and potentially damaging to their mental health. Why not allow them a community in which they can do this in safety? Such women will only account for a small proportion and if society has already treated them so badly, shouldn't it at least allow them the right to choose for themselves the best way to recover?

"Women and other minority groups", MoreBeta? Last time I looked, there were more women than men in the UK.

I would like society to work to remove that hostility and suspicion and not pander and cultivate it. This sentence suggests that the 'hostility and suspicion' are unfounded, and in a thread where lots of women have detailed the ways that men have made them feel unsafe, that's a bit rude. I'm writing a lot about it here, MoreBeta, cos you seem like a switched on kind of man who is worth talking to about these things. Please have a look at your privilege here, because you are being very blind about some important issues.

Are you saying "I want a better world, not one in which some people hide away?' - cos if son,I absolutely agree, MoreBeta - but the onus is on men - the men who enjoy the privilege of not fearing rape when they go to buy a pint of milk - to effect that change.

it's not 'pandering or cultivating' fear of rape, sexual assault, street harassment and other violence to believe women who say they experience these things. It's simply the right thing to do. If women tell you that they experience rape, sexual assault, street harassment and other violence, enacted by men, on a regular basis - and your response to those women is "Well you shouldn't shut yourself away, you should change society" then you are really, really not getting it. How can I stop getting catcalled? How can I stop being groped on the bus? Do tell me, please, cos I'd love it to stop. But I can't stop it. The men who do it - now THEY can stop it. The men who surround them, who make them think it's okay to treat women as subhuman - THEY can stop it.

The respectful, polite, human response to those women is "That is awful. I am appalled. I am going to get involved in working with men, with my male privilege they're more likely to listen to me than you, after all - and I am going to try to effect change."

If someone came up to me and said "All my life I have suffered racist taunts, the threat of racial violence, and silent discrimination in the workplace. Sometimes it makes me want to spend my time with only other nonwhite people, just so it would all stop." I wouldn't say "NO! Your duty is to stay here and, through your suffering, make us all not racist!" I'd say "It is my job as a white person who experiences white privilege to change society so that you feel as comfortable and respected here as I do.

Genuinely, I am not having a go at you. I think you're fairly smart man who wants to understand why all these women speak in positive (if theoretical) terms about female separatism. But this is really important, and you're not getting it. Trust women and believe them when they say these are their experiences. They are the truth.

I fully support our right, ad humans, to group people politically and culturally. But I am with morebeta I'm afraid. Albeit theoretical feminist separatist is surely about disliking and fearing men, surely for individuals like morebeta it's very insulting. You cannot assault the individual as part of feminism? And this idea that you cannot experience prejudice in the UK unless you have a vagina/black skin/poverty (tick whichever applies) is bonkers.

Also to keep telling him he doesn't get it when he disagrees is patronising.

Hanging around with lesbians is not a bad thing, saying hetrosexual women aren't welcome is different. I like people my own age, I find them easier to get on with but that doesn't me that older/younger people are excluded.

Mean.

i didn't think that separatism was just about 'escaping' from the male world, but also partly to demonstrate the independence of women, and the dependence of patriarchy?

so, to discuss in theory what society would be like if women just absconded?

obviously, it is only a theoretical discussion, and will probably only reflect our own prejudices, but what if the women suddenly weren't there? just men & children above a certain age? and the women, with babies/toddlers etc had their own society?

earlier i said that I think economically the women are likely to do better, as the cost of childcare is so great, that having to raise children, without the free labour of women, would disadvantage the male group.

by looking at this theoretical idea, we can see one example of how society is patriarchal.

i appreciate that there are small groups/families etc where this isn't the case, but generally speaking, women make a 'silent' financial contribution which is many times more than the single income of a working dad.

in fact, if you ask a financial adviser, they often recommend that women have life insurance of three times the amount that a man has, because the amount it would cost to replace the woman is three times more than the amount needed to replace the man. this would be in a family where the man is earning, and the woman stays home to raise kids.

"Also to keep telling him he doesn't get it when he disagrees is patronising."

I disagree. I think he disagrees because he doesn't get it, and because he's an intelligent, thoughtful poster with whom I am usually in agreement I took some time to try to persuade him more clearly of the other point of view.

Now, if I'd said he disagreed cos he was thick, that would have been patronising. As it was, I clearly said that I think he's arguing in good faith but his argument doesn't hold water, and if he looks at it from the position that women are telling the truth about their lives, rather than the position that if he hasn't seen it, it's not happening, then he might think differently.

There are other posters on this thread I disagree with, but I'm not engaging with them cos they're either trolling or barmpots. I was having a discussion with MoreBeta, cos I think he's pretty cool in general. That's all.

In practical terms, I also see actually having a separatist group as one which I'm not sure about. there are huge amounts of evidence that where there are two groups in conflict, to separate them leads to greater suspicion, rather than resolving the issues. so it may give short-term relief to individuals, but doesn't help the long-term resolution.

for that reason, i would never actually want to see a society where men & women are separate.

the idea of some kind of safe place/retreat is one that i like, but i think we all need that anyway - somewhere to retreat & reflect without outside pressures. and i understand that some people need that more than others.

however, i would like to see it as a way to help people to live together more easily. just like i enjoy some 'down time' so that i can be fun mum with dd, i also enjoy some time with my 'girlfriends'. however, i just as much need to hear, and engage with, the male perspective on certain issues, or i will have a biased view point.

so, i would like to see a world where our need for some privacy/escape is needed, but one where ultimately we all are able to live alongside each other.

YET AGAIN - this future dystopia of everyone hiding from every other category of people behind barbed wire fences is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. No one wants it to. The people banging on about it seem so terribly upset and frightened at the idea of even a few women far away living without men. Why's it so upsetting when no one is going to make you do it if you don't want to?
I suppose a part of it (from the male poster side) is that the dominant cultural group percieves all public space as accessible to them, so gets very arsy indeed about the idea of there being places they are not welcome and not wanted. Whereas women are forever being told that they can't go there, they wouldn't like it, it's dangerous...