Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

It's hardly the same is it, a group of people with something in common....your case is you're gender and sexual orientation.....as opposed to being closed to others. Can't see my life experience would have me particularly drawn to your group of friends. I don't work or have a gf, but I assume that should I be in need and be completely without prejudice then you may offer the ARM of friendship. To define people with such narrow strokes is bizarre, lesbian= friend, hetrosexual/man = not friend.

Actually SGB I am not sure I am particularly like the idea of any space not accessible to all, within reason.

YOUR

but as SGB just said, lots of places are (either openly or covertly) not accessible to women. Lots. And few men blink an eye at it - even supporting a few, whether it's a bar when women don't feel safe, a restaurant where carers for young children (mainly women) aren't welcome, or a 'gentleman's club' where women may not feel comfortable with gyrating vaginas in their faces. Men may not come out and say "yes there should be spaces where women can't go" but they also aren't doing much to combat the sexism that makes some spaces men-only.

Yet when a group of women on the internet hypothesize about the idea of a space not available to men, people have swooning fits about the terrible sexism of the idea - imagine, somewhere that men aren't allowed! or! if men ARE allowed to visit, actually, somewhere that men aren't lord and master!
It can't be allowed!!!!111!!!

Honestly, it's so weird.

Of course it's normal! If this thread, and Mumsnet passim is anything to go by, it's understandable that some women would like to opt out and share their time with like-minded friends because they are sick of explaining stuff time and again to fuckwits who won't bloody listen.

That's my point Lenin, I think you're lovely and friendly and I understand choosing the path of least resistance with friends but I think that's all it is. We share our lives with people we have things in common with, which is not the same as excluding all others! And I may take you up on that drink. Seems to me most people are choosing to be away from men but choosing to be with women. I love spending time with old friends but those without children take a little more work.

Separatism is a different animal, it's about actively saying that you're not open to relationships with certain groups.....

But what's wrong with that, TPP, if the certain groups have been abusive?

The Relationships section is full of people being advised to cease all relationships with abusive partners, abusive parents, etc. "You're not safe!" "they don't really love you if they treat you like that." and of course "after they've treated you like that, you don't owe them anything!"

Separatism is the same thing on a larger scale.

See blackcurrants I think to even say one whole group is prejudiced by commanility being gender and not say beliefs, like cults or Islam or facism or anything that is belief drivis wrong. Unless the 'victim' plays a role in that abuse.

blackcurrants - was it you that posted about men shouting at you when you were taking your dc to the park? That is just horrific. Is it the same group of men? Like on a worksite or something? If they're always in the same place/sametime might be worth telling the local police as its a disgusting way to behave

Brian - it's happened over the past year, at various different times. I've recently moved into a much posher neighbourhood, and now it never happens (mind you, now I never see ANYONE).

It is awful, isn't it? And yet, it's MUCH less frequent when I'm pushing DS than when I'm just walking somewhere by myself. And I get angrier when I hear about it happening to young girls (which it does) - like you read on Hollaback London.

TPP I don't quite get you, sorry, and I don't want to misread you/ put words into your mouth. Do you think it's wrong to say that women are discriminated against by men our patriarchal society?

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i think what she's saying, which is reasonable, is that to generalise a whole group by the actions of individuals who have abused you is wrong. and realistically it is and that distinction between 'some' and 'all' is what racists/homophobes etc refuse to make so it would not be good for women to go down that route. technically i agree.

essentially it's like saying i refuse to have young black males around because they are more criminally inclined - you could find the stats that would back it up but would it be right? no.

but then the thing is that black males have been discriminated against in ways that creates that statistic eg: more likely to be housed in shitty socio economic areas and targetted more by police for stop and searches and investigation due to the belief that they are more criminal therefore it is easy to critique that position. easier than it is to critique the idea that males are as a group more violent and dangerous to us than women given there is no skewering of the data and no socio-cultural disadvantage that has led to it especially given that it is men of all classes and economic status' that attack women.

essentially though i don't think that an all black or all female organisation or community is the same as saying 'no blacks/women allowed'.

blackcurrants - I agree with most things you said. You might be surprised. Society is changing its attitude to women, too slow but it is changing. My generation of men (I am 48) has a different attitude on average tham my Dad's generation (he is 68). I hope my sons' generation will have a better attitude. The message is getting through to men and the majority of men do at some level 'get it' albeit imperfectly.

Now that women have more economic power and more freedom to choose a life not tied to men I just HOPE that they will want to engage and take up a bigger role at all levels of society. It seems wrong to use the new found economic power and freedoms that women have to just disengage and pull up the drawbridge.

I am interested in this subject because I used to do academic research in social science and there are some really interesting computer simulation studies that show how racial segregation works in cities. The rules that drive those models are replicate the sentiments that Leningrad expressed about unconcioulsy wanting to socialise with other lesbians or at least women. If you insert black, white, blue, pink, male, female, muslim, christian or any other group characteristic and you get the same result - segregation.

The studies I am talking about were first done in Chicago after race riots in the 1960s. The shocking result is that all societies have to work actively against segregation otherwise it happens spontaneoulsy once people have freedom to choose who they associate with and it always results in tension between the groups. Look at what is happing in the Middle East and North Africa now. Segregation is really really bad in the long run - even for the small group of people it might initially benefit.

MoreBeta Not surprised at all, like I said, this is a useful point of discussion because I find your posts interesting. :)

The NY Times link I reposted was about a lesbian community who were, to be frank, dying out. Seriously. They were all over 60 and some older, and no one under 40 had wanted to join for a long time. I often want to 'pull up the drawbridge" against the sexist world but that would involve having my DH and DS in the castle with me - I honestly do not think anyone at all on this thread has been advocating for mass female separatism.

As a thought-experiment, however, it is very interesting that you say racial segregation tends to happen because people want to be with people they're like, for support or safety or whatever- I can believe it. And it's interesting because it's a way that gender and racial issues appear to be different - because gender separatism doesn't happen often or inevitably, does it? Women do not always end up living together for support or safety - the majority of women live with men. And yet a thread where a few people talk about the theoretical benefits of female separatism, specifically how withdrawing women's free labour (pregnancy, childbirth, infant care) would change the way it was perceived, and show its true value.

So for example, If, in some separatist dis/u/topia, the only way for men who iwanted babies to have any was to get pregnant themselves (sci-fi time!), give birth themselves, and spend every sodding night for the first few years getting their sleep interrupted, child-rearing would be a sacred calling, and men who did it would get medals. And the idea of having a family wouldn't be what it is today. And the value of the work that women do, free and often invisible - would be recognized.

blackcurrants - "......withdrawing women's free labour (pregnancy, childbirth, infant care) would change the way it was perceived, and show its true value."

I read about an interesting social phenomenon that has happened in the last 10 - 20 years in Italy where women are doing exactly that. It has/is changing Italian society because young women are refusing the traditional route of marriage then live with husband in his parents' home and have children while being an unpaid skivvy under the thumb of MIL.

In essence, Italian women have found economic freedom to earn a living and with that thrown off the shackles of the Catholic church so they also now can enjoy a relationship with a man on their own terms without being married. The article said that men in Italy in the younger generation are being forced to respond to the new found power women have or they just don't get a mate.

I suspect similar things hapened in Ireland in recent years.

i think it being the lowest must represent how awful women's position was - as in you have to have a massive disincentive to having children to reach the lowest birth rate in europe.