Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Do you have any specific examples, Lenin? I don't know about those societies. Do men remain totally separate, or do they come back after their rite of passage from boy to man?

I think LeninGrad is referring to other cultures around the world, often more tribal, where boys are often guided by an uncle and other men, not just his father, and taught the responsibilities and skills of functioning as a man within his society, and the girls are taught by other women and learn different, complimentary skills. Anthropology 101.

I think those societies have different ideas about men and women in general & possibly are the same as those that FGM or send their 13 girls off to nother village to marry.

Ah, the classic 'male role model' argument. I read a piece of research a while back (can't remember where sorry) that strongly suggested that it is better for a child to have no male role models than it is for a child to have a bad male role model.

If I place my own feminist perspective on top of this, I would say that as a parent my duty is to do my best to ensure that my DS (and my DD) is surrounded only be decent role models who have something to offer my children. Either as a direct influence in their lives, or indirectly just by being visible and demonstrating a life well lived. That's unaffected by gender.

At the moment, with the exception of those I've already mentioned, there are no men who can fulfil that function. If you want to blame anyone for that, blame a society that consistently pushes men out of the arena of a life involving small children. Don't blame the single mother who's been let down by the 'man' who fathered her children and is now protecting her DC from the malignant influence that he would exert.

As my DS gets older, and particularly once he starts school and develops his own friendships, his social sphere will widen and will naturally encompass more men. But hopefully, by ensuring he has only had good role models up to the point where he is forming his own relationships independent of me, he will have the tools necessary to choose good male role models.

i think the [general]view on mothers being seperatist/semi seperatist is actually quite homophobic.
for years we were told that gay men were gay because they was too close to theyre mothers or there wasnt a man about so this had made them gay.
always the mothers "fault"!
maybe ths is why people are finding the concept of seperatism so wrong?
maybe at the back of [some]peoples minds-this idea still sticks?

I also have a good memory, and am baffled at suggestion that Riven's DD has had a male PA. Sounds highly unlikely.

Re:single parents - yes, it's actually v easy to naturally slide into a near separatist lifestyle anyway as an SAHM. Imagine a single mother SAHM with a young child who has little contact with her own father. Chances for socialising with men are likely to be naturally limited.

victor[8.03 post]
thankyou!
well-i am frightened of some men but it would be odd if i wasnt-considering.
yep-i am defiant but i have to be.
actually-ive just made a excuse for myself for being defiant havent i....
i think maybe society dont like defiant women?
no-i dont hate men-some of the most marginlised groups in this country are men-and i support them-
being on the recieving end of hate for all sorts of reasons[in my life]has not made me hate others-its the patriarchy that i hate.
although i support marginilised men-i also realise that they do still have male privaledge so my support is more towards women[who havent].
in this-as ive said before-i still have to protect myself and others-the best ways i can.
if we didnt live in a society that has so much hatred towards others-i wouldnt be a semi seperatist!

I know she has actually, I was being polite.
As for the homophobic comment.....I'd give you a biscuit but I am on my phone.

TC, there was an occasion where the agency sent a male PA. I complained about it on mumsnet. Dd must have been about 4. I was told i was being ridiculous, that he had been crb checked and trained blah de blah.
It made me extremely uncomfortable, hence me posting, i had to stay in the room and do the nappy changes plus spend 3 hours alone with a strange man.
I really objected to that. Its not hapoenned since. If itsjust me and dd or me alone in the house i no longer let men in. My choice. So the hoist man has to wait u til dh gets home.

Obviously a medical emeregncy is different before anyone says 'but what about....?'
I am a tively making an effort to make mine a female environment (apart from male family members). My choice for my own comfort.

However, my seperatist feelings dont mean i dont go out and get myself onto comittees and not get involved in politics. But i do it on my terms and have certain conditions or I wont go.

This upsets some people. I wont use the word 'mundanes' because i dont like it. Years back it was used by a group of people who considered themselves superior to ordinary humans (go google otherkin if you need to boggle) and reffered to people not themselves as 'mundanes' because us mundanes werent unicorns or elves in human form. Ahem. It came up lots as i was involved in a lot of pagan and heritage stuff around stone circles and mouthy. You try protecting a stone circle from people who want to put dribbly candles on the limestone because they are dragons in human form or vampires or whatever. Its wearing.
That was possible a teeny derailment. We could start a thread about Otherkin and Shadowkin

My best friend is a man - my DH.

ALL my other close, loving friends are women. My other male friends are the husbands of my women friends.

Those who do live a separatist life - can I ask again how you manage that financially?

Brilliant and thought provoking thread, BTW. I do totally understand why some women choose separatism.

Dont forget, that seperatism and heading towards seperatism is a gradual process. 20 years ago i had lots of male friends despite being a greenham common rad feminist. 5 years ago i would still offer coffee to a friends husband alone if he popped round to fetch something for the friend.
This has all changed. Its a journey and i dont know where it will end. Co pletely seperatist life maybe, or partial. Who knows. I am guided with what makes me comfortable day to day and perfectly entitled to change my mind in 1 minute and dance nekkid down the street with a group of men.
I think crapola is trying to make something of changing minds and is using her namechange.

Not sure how it would work totally seperatist armchair. I doubt its possible. This reminds me of something some friemds said. They are orthodox jews so keep strict kosher. Ut there has to be degrees. They dont eat out or accept food in other households (am getting my kitchen kashered asap) but mix with the non jewish society. They do choose to use jewish workers or shops, as much as is practical but arent overlly fanatical about it.
I imagine seperatists woild be the same. On a personal level its easy as your home is your castle but day to day you manage but make sure you feel safe. A nurse chaperone with a male doctor or dentist, extra effort to find a female plumber.
That sort of thing.

yes-this is very true Riven.
i didnt set out to be a semi seperitist!
maybe one day i wont be a semi seperitist-or i might become completly seperitist!
i think this could be a arrestable offence riven[dancing naked in the street]

Thanks Riven,makes sense.

I understand why some women may, as a preference prefer to live a separatist life.

However, for many, many reasons it's not something that many women want or will be able to chose, so to describe it as a viable option feels rather navel gazing to me.

Further to what scottishmummy said, I believe in [[http://myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.html]] not patriarchy, so think that separatism would not really be the answer to our problems.

Bloody links! I believe in Kyriarchy:

myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.html

Bloody links! I believe in Kyriarchy:

myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.html

Co e to think of it I dont insist on a seperatist life for dd. She goes to school, at the playscheme a guy called Tom pushes her on the swings. I do insist that only females change her nappies and that she is never alone with a male but thats their policy for everyones saftey and dignity too.
Its within my home tnat I make rules.
Dd is off to the playsvheme in the first week of the holidays for 2 day sessions. Its possible Tom will be assigned to her again as her playworket. Its not a problem. He wont change her nappy. But I wouldnt let him come here as a PA when its just me in the house.
See the difference?
Dds paed is also male and I adore him but its a professional relationship. In my personal and social life i only want females.

Didnt understand all that intersecting stuff but that was really interesting goth, thanks