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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To all those who say on threads 'I am too scared to go into feminism' - this topic isn't scary!

1002 replies

GetOrfMoiLand · 12/07/2011 15:14

I think it's a shame when I see threads where the OP says 'I am too scared to put this in feminism' or something.

I am certainly not knowledgeable about feminist theory, but have never felt that my opinion on this thread wasn't wanted or I was vilified for stating what I believed.

I think this topic is pretty inclusive - yes some people are forthright with their opinions, but nobody's word is god, and I would hate to think that mumsnetters were put off contributing to threads in this topic because they mistakenly think the posters on here are viragos. Grin

OP posts:
ItsNotUnusual · 13/07/2011 12:38

malinois - love your post :)

hullygully - I agree that some of the threads on the femist board seem serious and weighty. But surely that's entirely appropriate for the nature of the discussion and the passionate committment of the posters concerned. There's a time and a place for 'lighter / darker humour'. I wouldn't charge into a thread in relationships on domestic violence singing 'Smack my Bitch Up' or simailar.

MillyR · 13/07/2011 12:38

All this 'let's get along' is completely disingenuous. The purpose of a number of you starting, or coming on these threads is not to have more people on the feminist section, it is to have more people that you want on the feminist section, and to get the people who you didn't like to leave by posting about them on multiple threads.

And various people have either left or hugely reduced their posting in the feminist section as a consequence, so now you've started naming a different set of posters that you don't like.

Bye.

sunshineandbooks · 13/07/2011 12:45

I can't believe this is still going on! Shock

I hadn't read any Dworkin, Daly, or any of the feminist books when I started posting on here. I even had to google 'patriarchy' - that's how ignorant I was about feminism.

I posted quite a few thoughts that I was pulled up on. I never felt attacked though. There was nothing personal in the way my assumptions were shown to be incorrect. I learned an awful lot from it. Some posters in this section are very forthright about their views but that's the same across the whole of MN.

As far as I can see, the only time there has been real difficulty in this section is when we talk about rape. I haven't seen any other threads where newcomers have had a hard time unless they are saying something that is blatantly anti-feminist, such as 'the patriarchy doesn't exist' or 'it's a woman's own fault if her partner hits her'. I have seen some very ill-thought-out arguments taken apart, but mostly it is the argument taken apart not the poster, and when it comes to personal attacks I think the feminist regulars get an awful lot more than anyone else.

I agree that the rape threads can be difficult for newcomers. I think we need to remember that emotions will run high on such a sensitive topic, because given the prevalence of rape, the size of MN and the fact that mainly women post on here, it is inevitable that some posters will have personal experience of it. Sad It is one of those topic areas where you should think carefully about what you say and how you say it.

Rape has been going on for millennia and yet it's only in the last 50 years that the myths are being exploded. Rape within marriage was only banned 20 years ago. We have a long cultural history of apologising for rape in this country and still a long way to go - conviction rates prove that. Rape myths are sadly still controlling the mainstream view.

Having lurked on a few rape threads on here then gone off and found out more (info freely available on the internet) I had a complete conversion about rape. If you'd asked me to post a few years ago, I'd have had a very different viewpoint. I never thought rape was ok but I realise that I did accidentally 'apologise' for it in some cases because I wasn't aware of how much I'd bought into some of the harder-to-dispel myths. I think sometimes as feminists it would help our cause to remember that. Most rape 'apologists' don't hate women, they just haven't seen through all the myths yet.

However, when we come out and point out that a poster has believed a rape myth we are often accused of being patronising or dismissive. If we come back with a load of evidence or direct people off to read more about the research, we are accused of being intellectual snobs or bullying people. But how else can we point out the myths? To some extent it is an intellectual exercise because to prove/disprove something you have to research it.

We do have a go at simplifying things or labouring one myth at a time, but sometimes there is just too much information to bring it into a thread. When it comes to providing evidence to support a POV I have to say that I see that much more often from feminist regulars than I do from those disagreeing with us.

I concede that we could work on presenting our POVs in a more patient way. However, given the nature of the topic, I think newcomers also have a responsibility to use some sensitivity when posting about things such as rape and DV. That's got less to do with feminism than it has to do with basic respect to other human beings IMO.

porpoisefull · 13/07/2011 12:54

I think pornography may be one of the other topics where threads get heated - someone says "Well, would it be ok if this or that" and people quickly get angry with the person asking the question. I can't refer to a particular thread to back this up, I'm afraid, it's just my impression.

Prolesworth · 13/07/2011 12:57

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ItsNotUnusual · 13/07/2011 13:05

I probably had rape apologist tendencies at some point in the past. I didn't wander apparently aimlessly into a thread with some personal and heartbreaking stories with my ill-formed witterings though. I just sat back and watched others do that!

I don't beat myself up that I was gullible enough to have bought into rape myths because that's the society I live in - innit. I regret that I am not vocal enough to challenge this as strongly as some - in real life or online but I try to do my bit by talking to my daughters and challenging the more obvious stuff.

In a similar way - I was porn neutral too in the past but have found that the clear and articulate points of view on here have helped me vocalise how I now feel.

floyjoy · 13/07/2011 13:06

sunshine great post
I am sometimes shocked by some of the posts on the rape threads because they seem to be either completely not thought out or intentionally designed to wind-up feminist posters. If you're totally insensitive on a rape or DV thread, often after posters have written about their experience on the feminist board you shouldn't be surprised to be attacked. As for those who troll -that is just warped. To see a recent poster who states on MN that she/he is not a feminist then opts to come on a feminist rape thread to tell the feminist posters why they are wrong to hold the views about rape that they do- that's just awful.

LRDTheFeministNutcase · 13/07/2011 13:06

Milly, I'm afraid I agree. Since someone began this by saying that 'you' feminists should look to yourselves and change - how about 'you' complainers taking a look too?

I think some threads are sometimes too serious, or too graphic, or too upsetting, for me. I do not always want to read them. But thank god they are there. One day it could be me starting one of them.

That's how I feel, anyway.

LeninGrad · 13/07/2011 13:08

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Pagwatch · 13/07/2011 13:10

Well fwiw I am sorry that there is that perception. I cannot speak for any other non regulars posting on these threads.
But I have no names to name. I just feel like the feminist section should be somewhere I would want to post but it feels uncomfortable.

SAFs post about how perhaps it should feel a little uncomfortable because it is meant to be challenging makes the most sense. Plus the people stumbling on to feminism threads because they pick up on a title in active convos.

But that's all

floyjoy · 13/07/2011 13:11

Yeah, the complaints look like an attempt to modify the board, to make it less political.

Adults who complain that they can't join in because they are intimidated - well maybe you shouldn't be. That's up to you, not everyone else to fix. This is an anonymous forum on the internet, you don't have to post. You can start new threads. As LRD says, not every thread is for everyone. I can barely get through the rape threads because of the rape apologists and trolls. I can't believe that anyone would complain about feminist posters when people like that are kicking around here.

Prolesworth · 13/07/2011 13:15

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Prolesworth · 13/07/2011 13:16

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MillyR · 13/07/2011 13:18

How do you know who is strong enough to put up with it Lenin? All these people who go on about how uncomfortable they've been made to feel and how they can't cope with the challenge are still here. It is the people who you have encouraged other people to criticise who have stopped or reduced their posting.

Pagwatch · 13/07/2011 13:18

Yes, I get that.
Perhaps my suggestion for a radical feminism section was wrong. Perhaps the rest of us need Feminism Lite Grin

But floyjoy...erm... does not that become a circular argument..
If you are too weak ass to go on feminism threads and cope with it then don't
If you are too weak ass to cope with a thread criticising the feminism section, don't go on them

Prolesworth · 13/07/2011 13:19

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LRDTheFeministNutcase · 13/07/2011 13:24

pag - I don't think it's about being 'weak ass'. It's that discussing this stuff in isolation from an actual contentious thread is, as Milly says, disingenuous.

No-one likes being ranted at or called anti-feminist; I know that. But it's simply not the case there's a big bunch of nasty posters that the rest of us need to be protected from. If you (pl) think someone is bullying, take it up with them. Report them. Do exactly what you do everywhere else on MN. Chances are, you will get masses of support if that is what you do. If, OTOH, you decide the best option is to start another thread complaining, you are going to confuse and irritate everyone.

LeninGrad · 13/07/2011 13:31

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Pagwatch · 13/07/2011 13:34

I am not going to start a thread, I haven't started any yet Smile I also haven't complained about bullying which I am pretty sure you know.

I think there are genuinely two conversations going on-

Why is the feminist section not encompassing more of us -are we not feminists?
Why are the people on the feminism section mean?

I think the first is valid but it keeps becoming the second.

LeninGrad · 13/07/2011 13:35

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LRDTheFeministNutcase · 13/07/2011 13:35

lenin, I have to say, I think you'd see more acknowledgment if you stayed on some of these threads. I totally understand why you wouldn't want to, though.

I do think that there is a tendency to expect certain posters to change more than others or to assume that because they post a lot, they therefore carry more responsibility for the way the 'section' comes across. They don't.

IME, the best way to make this section welcoming is to welcome and answer newbies and to start threads that focus on topics you think need discussing.

bibbitybobbityhat · 13/07/2011 13:37

I strongly agree with your post Hully.

My perception of the MN feminism section is that it is like one of those long-running threads for the meeting of like-minded souls - Shineys, Nobdies, Wankers - only there's usually more than one thread going on at a time. And many regular feminism posters right here on this very thread have more or less said that's how they want it to stay. And so it will.

I have been here a long time and am reasonably experienced in the funny little quirks of life on this forum, am not scared of words on a screen, don't have any axe to grind with any individual posters in this section, certainly not phased by cliques (they are inevitable - and anyway what's wrong with a lovely clique?).

I do know how annoying it is when the same subjects come up again and again on Mumsnet but I actually haven't stumbled across one like this for at least a year or two, so I thought I would join in and re-visit my take on it. I am sorry if it has upset anyone individually or collectively.

LRDTheFeministNutcase · 13/07/2011 13:37

I know, pag, hence the 'pl'. Smile

I was just bouncing off what you said.

Agree about the two questions ... I really hate 'qualifying tests' of any kind (there's a ridiculously daft one about alcoholics in Brave Babes atm, it's all a bit much ...).

Pagwatch · 13/07/2011 13:38

Grin I know. I saw the pl. But I need to be loved.

LRDTheFeministNutcase · 13/07/2011 13:39

bibbity ... like-minded souls? Really?

Confused
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