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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Apparently women can't be doctors...

117 replies

springboksaplenty · 08/07/2011 09:41

Ok this is my first post on feminism and it is really just a rant. I have just finished a fourth night shift and am feeling quite a bit ranty.

Apparently, no matter how many times I introduce myself to people, using my title I am constantly referred to as 'nurse'. I don't have a problem with nurses it's just that that is not my job - as I said a number of times. Now this isn't the elderly who I can understand where they're coming from. But men - and women - who are 20-40 yrs old. I have admitted, diagnosed and treated and even operated on people, who have then turned round on ward round and claim they haven't seen a doctor all night. It is driving me crazy. I wear my badge around my neck with Dr on it (haven't changed it to the surgical ms. For this very reason). I even had a male nurse come in with me to chaperone and the patient looked to him to answer his questions. He was mid 30s.

And to top my night off, and what has sent me into this outraged rant, is that a male colleague (different specialty) turned up on my ward after having to be practically dragged there by continued calls by nursing staff, only to say to Sister 'don't worry dear it's fine'. Dear?! Who the fuck do you think you are? It's not fine you patronising shit do your bloody job and see to your patient.

And breathe...

OP posts:
feministlurker · 09/07/2011 01:16

oops, forgot that MN does not do HTML codes like for bold type

LilBB · 09/07/2011 07:54

Morebeta where you taking notes on the consultants dress? Also can you explain what your DW meant when she told the careers officer that girls shouldn't dress like secretaries? What do secretaries look like? I think what you wear to work depends on your office. Yes you need to dress smart for interviews to be taken seriously but after that it's up to your brain. It's a shame people have preset ideas about men doing x job and women doing y but the way you dress doesn't make a jot of difference. As I've already said often staff with less responsibility dress better than those higher up.

MoreBeta · 09/07/2011 09:00

feministlurker - you know perfectly well I'm not suggesting the OP wears heels and a gold necklace with her scrubs. I have seen a female and a male consultant in the last few months. Both were wearing very obviously formal business dress when they met me. I noticed both people and their modes of dress. I have seen other consultants do the same. My female GP also wears quite formal busines dress much like the female consultant I saw.

I really feel from the description she has given that the OP is unconciously dressing down and she needs to think about what message that sends.

It matters in the professional world. Sorry but it does and it is no use pretending it doesn't.

It would be a crying shame if the OP is unknowingly damaging her career prospects by dressing in a way that sends signals that she is a junior member of staff when she is so obviously highly skilled and good at her job. We need more women like the OP in senior positions so people get used to seeing it.

Several times on the thread, I have seen people basically saying 'if she is good at her job that is what matters. Well yes - but to get to the very top of any profession we all know very well that office politics, associating yourself with other successful people, sending the right signals up the chain about your competencies, grabbing promotion opportunities as well as dressing, looking, speaking and behaving 'like a professional' all matter just as much. Women very typically make the mistake of believing that 'if I'm good at my job I will get recognised'. That is just not how it works.

LilBB - walk onto any trading floor in The City, a top end law firm, an accountacy/consultancy firm. You will see very few senior women but they all take extreme care in what they wear, their modes of speech, how they do their hair. It is obvious they are not secretaries.

If you want to see what I mean look at photos of one of the mpost powerful women in the World here, here, and here. Christine Lagarde just appointed as Head fo the IMF, former French Finance Minister and Head of Baker Mackenzie profesisonal services firm.

joaninha · 09/07/2011 10:47

The problem is, imo, that men can afford to be more relaxed with the dresscode because they don't have to prove their competence. Women on the other hand have to play more by the rules because they do.

ohanotherone · 09/07/2011 12:06

I don't agree that springbok should dress in heels and a pencil skirt suit. That is not comfortable when walking down long corridors perhaps at speed in an emergency and impractical in a hospital environment. She needs to wear clothes that are safe and comfortable. The most confidence inspiring female Consultant I know wears jeans and a shirt with rolled up sleeves and introduces herself by her first name and surname and I don't think that anyone would ever contemplate that she was anything other than her job title.

TheRealMBJ · 09/07/2011 12:29

Haven't read the whole thread, but I know exactly what you mean OP. I'm not practising currently but have experienced very similar attitudes uncertain hospitals I have worked in. TBH, depending on my level of exhaustion, I could sometime respond very rudely to this stubborn denial of the fact that I could be a doctor. AND I'm a physician, I don't even work in the more misogynist surgical arena. In fact, I have found it to be much worse here than in my native South Africa, a country not really known for it's gender equality. I think it says a lot about Britain, tbh.

Anyway, I think it ridiculous to suggest that a doctor (or any other femal professional for that matter) should dress according to some sort of 80s Working Girl stereotype of a "powerful female executive". It simply is neither practical nor safe to dress in stillettos and a pencil skirt in what is quite a physically demanding job, nor is jewellery allowed for infection control purposes (other than a simple wedding band).

(Personally, I prefer black stethoscopes as they look the most timeless and classy to me, on men and women Grin. BUT surgeons are very unlikely to carry one anyway, so I don't think these assumptions have anything to do with steth colour. It's just pure, ingrained, cultural sexism)

feministlurker · 10/07/2011 14:50

Hear hear TheRealMBJ.

And I would like to add one more thing. The nice polite "politically correct" responses you get from people in the formal, controlled environment of outpatient clinics is one thing.

But then, as springbok says, once a patient is admitted to hospital with something a bit more acute than that (ie: when someone is put in a stressful situation) then that thin social veneer can come off and you begin to see the assumptions people unconsciously make all the time but usually keen hidden. Once under stress some people will start bypassing their internal censor -you know, that entity that sits in your prefrontal cortex and usually stops you saying unwise things.

The fact that these things (assumptions about people's roles/seniority purely on the basis of gender) are STILL happening in the 21st century, is a sign that our society is not as equal as we'd like, and that feminism is just as relevant today as in the Bad Old Days.

MissusTulip · 10/07/2011 16:34

[morebeta] - sorry, but your dress advice is as much about re-inforcing gender and professional stereotypes as it is anything else! I'm sure it is entirely well-meant. There is a generational shift in how different professions and the men and women in them dress and present themselves. Eg. most male medical colleagues of my generation wear shirt / tie / chino or suit trainers, but not all will wear a tie. Us lady docs tend to go for smart casual outside of environments like OP, where there is a specific set of clinical and practical reasons for wearing scrubs, flat shoes, no make-up, hair pulled back etc.

The idea that a female surgeon (of whatever seniority) should have to send out power signals through her hair / make-up / jewellery is a bit barmy, tbh Smile. For one thing, once you're in scrubs facing a day in theatre it is rather impractical (yum, sweaty makeup sliding down face, attempting to get stiff hairsprayed hairdo under disposable paper hat, infection control huntng you down for jewellery etc). For another - why on earth should you, unless this is your own personal taste or style? I don't see how this fits with a feminist viewpoint. Even a female doc who chooses to wear 'less appropriate' clothing (short skirts, tight or low tops) - this is still her choice as a woman to choose the image she presents to the world, that makes her happy - even if that means a pink stethoscope? What you wear does not somehow cancel out the years of training and the expertise built up in any career. Or mean that you are invalidated as a woman because you dress frivilously. I've met / worked with plenty of female colleagues who dress like Barbie but their competence is obvious, as well as some who are frighteningly air-headed! And the same goes for female colleagues who dress conservatively.

I personally tend to tailor what I wear at work to the work situation - routine patient contact, smart casual to a softer look (I'm a psychiatrist, so a suit or harsh tailoring can be too intimidating for patients); if I'm going to court or into prison, I'll wear a suit. So I follow some conventions about dress, but I wear clothes to suit my taste and which are professional enough, not to some theoretical doctor dress code.

My experience is also one of people judging what they think I am based on age and gender, not on how I and others introduce me. I do think this is much more pronounced than for my male peers, and it is a common experience for female peers. My favourite was in a prison where I used to do clinics. The male consultant had worked there for years and the GP was also male. I would come in, in my suit, prisoners would be told by the nurses (in nursing or prison uniforms) that they would be seeing DrTulip and yet the poor male prisoners never could seem to get it straight that I was the doctor. However, rather than 'nurse' they would call me 'miss', leaving me feeling rather like a primary school teacher (quite appropriately most of the time!) Grin

BestNameEver · 10/07/2011 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

springboksaplenty · 11/07/2011 03:24

Morebeta I appreciate what you are saying but I have to say I will not be altering what I am wearing in that regard. I dont wear make up and tie my hair back for practical reasons, which mean more to me than the vague hope that it may make a pt slightly more likely to view me as a doctor.

As someone said before, this is not really about how I dress as a similarly dressed man does not encounter the same issue ( ie wearing scrubs and theatre clogs). This is about gender stereotyping being alive and well even amongst the young. It means that although people would like to think that feminists are going on about bygone problems, it is still relevant to us today.

OP posts:
springboksaplenty · 11/07/2011 03:35

Morebeta I appreciate what you are saying but I have to say I will not be altering what I am wearing in that regard. I dont wear make up and tie my hair back for practical reasons, which mean more to me than the vague hope that it may make a pt slightly more likely to view me as a doctor.

As someone said before, this is not really about how I dress as a similarly dressed man does not encounter the same issue ( ie wearing scrubs and theatre clogs). This is about gender stereotyping being alive and well even amongst the young. It means that although people would like to think that feminists are going on about bygone problems, it is still relevant to us today.

OP posts:
creighton · 11/07/2011 13:02

Do stop whining lady doctors, soon enough you will be patronising patients 2 or 3 times your age and getting upset when the little people (i.e. non doctors) question you, just like the men. Your hair and make up problems are minor inconveniences on your upward career trajectories.

EldritchCleavage · 11/07/2011 16:39

I can't agree with you, Morebeta. Your approach leaves women having to conform to very narrow, conservative ideas of what they should look like in any given work context. I don't accept that women should have less autonomy or indivduality in that than men. Also, as other posters have said, the problem is that gender attitudes are so ingrained, that even 'appropriate' dress or power-dressing won't save the OP and many other women from the kind of assumptions OP is complaining about.

That said, it is a shame that current fashions and anti-feminist attitudes have left some younger women believing that the be-all and end-all of good dressing is sexual display.

DH and DS recently visited me at work. We sat at a nearby cafe and watched a young woman staggering past in a very tight suit and incredibly high stilettos, both of which were clearly making wallking difficult. DS (2) watched her go by and said "That lady needs to go to the loo, Mummy". Up to her how she dresses, obviously, but I reflected sadly that no man would ever subject himself to such discomfort for anything.

MoreBeta · 11/07/2011 17:50

Men have far less autonomy or individuality in most professional settings. A suit, shirt and tie is just about it unless you run the place.

jennyvstheworld · 13/07/2011 20:53

This is somewhere where I see my own prejudices; I do expect a doctor to be a rather grave looking man in his fifties (at the least). The vital bit of this is not so much the gender as the age. I'm fully cognisant of the fact that there are more female doctors qualifying than male ones, but I have this image in my head from, I guess, my childhood, of what a doctor should look like. My main problem with encountering doctors (and lawyers, etc) these days is that they seem so flipping young!! Same with the Police... what a cliche! I guess this means I'm old :(

organicgardener · 15/07/2011 14:53

It is difficult to tell who's who when they are all wearing green tops and bottoms.

FaintlyMacabre · 16/07/2011 10:04

Just to redress the balance...
DS1 (3.5) Is Dr Foster went to Gloucester a man?
Me: Yes.
DS1: How is he a doctor?
Me: Erm, he went to medical school I suppose
DS1: But how is he a doctor? He's a man! Doctors can't be men!
This carried on for a while but I couldn't convince him.

Interestingly , although I am a doctor I haven't worked since he was born, and of the 3 times DS1 has been to the doctor, 2 have been men, so I have no idea where he's got this from!

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