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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Apparently women can't be doctors...

117 replies

springboksaplenty · 08/07/2011 09:41

Ok this is my first post on feminism and it is really just a rant. I have just finished a fourth night shift and am feeling quite a bit ranty.

Apparently, no matter how many times I introduce myself to people, using my title I am constantly referred to as 'nurse'. I don't have a problem with nurses it's just that that is not my job - as I said a number of times. Now this isn't the elderly who I can understand where they're coming from. But men - and women - who are 20-40 yrs old. I have admitted, diagnosed and treated and even operated on people, who have then turned round on ward round and claim they haven't seen a doctor all night. It is driving me crazy. I wear my badge around my neck with Dr on it (haven't changed it to the surgical ms. For this very reason). I even had a male nurse come in with me to chaperone and the patient looked to him to answer his questions. He was mid 30s.

And to top my night off, and what has sent me into this outraged rant, is that a male colleague (different specialty) turned up on my ward after having to be practically dragged there by continued calls by nursing staff, only to say to Sister 'don't worry dear it's fine'. Dear?! Who the fuck do you think you are? It's not fine you patronising shit do your bloody job and see to your patient.

And breathe...

OP posts:
HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 08/07/2011 12:25

Whiny and simpering are words far more directed at women than men - so are sexist.

The same outrage would not be present if the doctor in question wore a blue stethoscope. It is because of the connortations of pink (as Trillian outlined) being associated with little girls. And that is sexist.

AwesomePan · 08/07/2011 12:26

Trills, you don't!Sad

GetOrfMoiLand · 08/07/2011 12:28

LilBB most of my working life has been in military aerospace, I know what you mean.

You end up having a tough hide - you have to be complete emotionless and the absolute top of your game at all times in order to be taken seriously. I was an engineer (later moved into the commercial side) and the looks of astonishment I used to get. It doesn't help that the main military aeroplane manufacturers are (by and large) bastions of old fashioned male values. It is starting to change, though (slowly)

I loved it though. Love planes

Sorry for hijack OP.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 08/07/2011 12:28

"Grow up" - was that directed at me GetOrf? A bit uncalled for! I was only trying to put the point across that the colour pink comes with its own sexist roots. I am not saying that inappropriate accessories at work are unprofessional - just that the other colour stethoscopes are available and I don't think people would have as great a problem with a blue stethoscope as a pink one.

DirtyMartini · 08/07/2011 12:28

An excess of pink accessories/decor often goes hand in hand with a liking for sugary, infantilised tweeness to which I simply cannot relate on style grounds. But more importantly, I am sure that it is linked to the cynical marketing of pink as "for girls", and I find that in itself deeply annoying. It does women no favours, quite the opposite.

Anyway, re the OP, I am sorry & cross that you have to put up with this in 2011. It would piss me off no end. I'm sure tiredness and the stress of your work make it even harder to rise above it all ... it would be better if it wasn't happening in the first place.

I don't know what the solution is. If you become more imperious then yes, it might help, but then you'll get the "uppity woman" criticism/reaction, no doubt. Maybe that is better, though? I don't know. Difficult to win against entrenched sexism.

DirtyMartini · 08/07/2011 12:28

God, massive xpost. I always do that. I type too slowly

GetOrfMoiLand · 08/07/2011 12:31

No no no scallops - I wasn't saying grow up to you! Was directed at the Liverpool FC and Hello Kitty colleagues!

I see your point about pink for girls being viewed as inherently sexist (however I think it is the excessive marketing of pink for girls is to blame), however I think that someone intelligent like a doctor should not wear something which would make her look like a fluffy girl. She is a professional.

DirtyMartini · 08/07/2011 12:32

I think GetOrf was exhorting her Hello Kitty-toting colleagues to grow up in a rhetorical fashion, not you, HandDived.

I think the association of pink with little girls in the first place is the sexist bit. Objecting to that and disliking the way pink functions nowadays as a "marker" of girlishness is not sexist at all, quite the opposite. Hence the "pink stinks" campaign & similar.

LilBB · 08/07/2011 12:32

I think she was aiming that at her colleagues with the Liverpool/hello kitty accessories!!

It doesn't help when one of our biggest customers are allowed to request only male staff go and work on their projects. Their wives (not girlfriends) can go and live with them but they have to stay on a compound all the time. I worked with someone who was qualified to do a job and could even speak the language of this country but was immediately rejected as she's female. If absolutely necessary a woman can go out as a consultant but doesn't get any of the perks like tax free salary that the men get.

DirtyMartini · 08/07/2011 12:33

aaaaaaaaarghh at xposting trend

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 08/07/2011 12:34

Ahh right - sorry GetOrf Blush

Feeling a bit ranty today so apologies!

PurpleStrawberryGuava · 08/07/2011 12:34

My mum is a retired hospital doctor and she used to get this too, and as well as people asking for an English doctor, as opposed to a foreigner.

There are some lovely folk out there.

OpusProSerenus · 08/07/2011 12:39

I think you are looking for sexism where none exists Handdived! Just because certain words may be used by certain people about a particular sex does not make them automatically sexist.

I work closely with 2 GPs who are both extremely caring and supportive to patients and staff, caring and supportive are words some people would associate more with women but these GPs are both male. Regardless of their sex using those words about them implies nothing in terms of sexism.

Or does your sexism argument apply only to "negative" words. I maintain DP and DS whine an awful lot more than DD or myself. Don't think any of us simper though (at least not that I'm aware of)

The point I was making referred to a young woman as she was the only example I had and it seemed relevant but I maintain I would feel the same about either sex behaving inappropriately and object to the suggestion that my opinion is sexist

theDudesmummy · 08/07/2011 12:41

I think it does get a bit better as you get older, springbok (also you care less about it, I find!). I have been a doctor for the best part of twenty-five years and did used to get this, but now it doesn't really happen any more. I think its something to do with looking older than most of the nurses now, oh dear?! I do get a bit annoyed in my private life when people call me Mrs DH even when they know me, as I am not a Mrs and I also have quite strong feelings about not taking your husband's name when you marry.

benne81 · 08/07/2011 12:44

I used to get this all the time on the wards. In A&E once the ambulance team handed over the resus patient to the male medical student I was supervising rather than to me! TBH I found quite amusing as I was so tired at the time and the medical student looked absolutely terrified.

SinicalSal · 08/07/2011 12:46

That's interesting dudesMummy about looking older than the nurses, how do nurses careers progress as they age?

ZZZenAgain · 08/07/2011 12:47

couldn't imagine mistaking a doctor for a nurse really, different clothing and often a different manner.

I don't think I would go for increased arrogance to counteract this. It is something I hate intensely but generally appearing very "serious" in clothing/facial expression might do it. Sometimes you have to learn to smile less for one thing IME, ridiculous as it sounds.

It is true that the older you get, the more serious you appear to people and I find the more likely they are to assume you hold a higher position. Do you look young for your age OP? I always did and I remember when I worked as a solicitor and later as a lecturer being told more often than I would have liked to hear it, I looked far too young to be either. I was not young but tbh I did always look very young for my age.

If that is what lies behind it, take my word for it - that passes

LilBB · 08/07/2011 12:48

Getorf my love of planes is growing. When I first started working there I wasn't that interested, especially as Im not directly involved, but now I get really proud when I see one of ours or a bit sad when they retire them. My interest has definitely grown since we started with the UAVs. They are like something out of science fiction!! I'm feeling a bit in awe of you being an engineer.

OpusProSerenus · 08/07/2011 12:56

When working at a hospital in Cape Town in the 80s I was once asked by a medical consultant if everything was ok at home as he couldn't understand why a pretty young thing would want to be working instead of at home with babies!! He thought he was showing genuine fatherly concern Shock, at least it's not that bad any more.

LilBB abd GetOrf, my DB works in planes and took us, years ago, to a family day. I was totally in awe of those military planes, they were amazing even to someone like me who has never had any interest in cars, planes, etc.

PS. What's a UAV? Or is it one of those things that you would have to kill me if you told me? (Am sure DB is lying when he says that Hmm)

RumNoRaisinsPlease · 08/07/2011 12:56

I can understand the allure of the coloured stethoscope though. When 70% of doctors are using the same grey Littmann's having a pink ( or blue, green etc) one will prevent someone walking away with it easily.

Rant away springbok. I used to have a 6 ft 2 male house officer and patients would automatically speak to him on my rounds.

boysrock · 08/07/2011 13:04

Its an irritating misconception in reverse, the general public have an inability to discriminate between health professional in general, take comfort it wasn't a protracted "laa" from young lad who was simultaneously using the office chair to scoot across the floor of the treatment room as he was being seen. My teeth are still itching.

I wear scrubs and use a stethoscope but get addressed as a doctor, which i'm not and they get corrected fast. I think that the older you appear and certainly the more assertive and knowledgeable you seem then the more it is assumed you are a doctor, regardless of role.

Tbh in your position after a set of nights then they would all have got short shrift and not made that mistake again. The female consultants I have worked with in a very male dominated environment were very assertive and would not tolerate being talked down to by anyone, they still remained approachable though.

FrozenNorthPole · 08/07/2011 13:05

DH has a burgundy Littmann precisely for that reason, Rum. Unfortunately it also means that DD1 likes it far, far more than her toy stethoscope ...

Dorje · 08/07/2011 13:30

If your patients are children, then I can completely understand a pink stethoscope. I'd say a neutral colour is better for inspiring confidence in adults.
Completely understand the frustration though - so rant away. Bonsoir has a point though.

FWIW I work in a masculine environment and have learnt not to chat, to not try and please, to not smile all the time, to be impassive, and to wait till some junior makes a tit out of himself by burbling in meetings (used to be me coming in with high pitched nervous stuff). I do NOT do anyone elses' work. I negotiate hard.

I wear unrevealing clothes, (I have massive boobs), a jacket most days, and have paired my accessories down. Don't know if this is something to even consider.

On days when we are brainstorming and discussing design, for eg, I'll wear something a bit more wow and quirky and 'my style', but day to day, I'm quite a pared down, analytical, impassive cow really!!!

TeiTetua · 08/07/2011 13:41

This is a problem especially for young women in professional jobs. I'm not sure how to counteract it exactly, but I'm thinking hair style and shoes, glasses if worn, might make a difference. One cringes to think of treating a doctor like a Harrods saleslady (!!) but there are things people can do to project an image, hopefully without having to put on a complete fake costume. And without acting like a big bully either.

Re the stethoscope, I don't think that a "blue" one would necessarily get more respect than a pink one. If it was a serious navy blue, that should pass, but cute baby blue, forget that. The same would go for any doctor, either gender.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 08/07/2011 13:47

"Or does your sexism argument apply only to "negative" words." My arguments applied to the words you used about the female doctor - whiny and simpering. You wouldn't have used those words about a male doctor who was complaining (unless he was cowering in a corner crying).