Apparently women can't be doctors...

[springboksaplenty]

Ok this is my first post on feminism and it is really just a rant. I have just finished a fourth night shift and am feeling quite a bit ranty.

Apparently, no matter how many times I introduce myself to people, using my title I am constantly referred to as 'nurse'. I don't have a problem with nurses it's just that that is not my job - as I said a number of times. Now this isn't the elderly who I can understand where they're coming from. But men - and women - who are 20-40 yrs old. I have admitted, diagnosed and treated and even operated on people, who have then turned round on ward round and claim they haven't seen a doctor all night. It is driving me crazy. I wear my badge around my neck with Dr on it (haven't changed it to the surgical ms. For this very reason). I even had a male nurse come in with me to chaperone and the patient looked to him to answer his questions. He was mid 30s.

And to top my night off, and what has sent me into this outraged rant, is that a male colleague (different specialty) turned up on my ward after having to be practically dragged there by continued calls by nursing staff, only to say to Sister 'don't worry dear it's fine'. Dear?! Who the fuck do you think you are? It's not fine you patronising shit do your bloody job and see to your patient.

And breathe...

I will generally have heels on for patient contact, but I would imagine some people could mistake me for a nurse anyway (not a theatre nurse as nowhere near a surgical unit!). But as I said before, the older I get the less this has happened for some reason.

There's a female consultant I know who (tries to) insist her female juniors wear clicky high heels, as apparently it creates the right impression. What that impression is I never dared ask...

bruxeur - the female consultant I met was 6 weeks ago.

I also met a male consultant a couple of months ago. He met me in my three consultations wearing a jacket and tie. I only saw him in his scrubs about 1 hour before the operation.

Sorry, I know why this enrages women and I understand perfectly why it should not happen and I am of course very careful in hospitals about not assuming women are nurses. However, DW had an interesting conversation yesterday that illustrates the point.

DW used to work in a very senior position in The City. She grinds her teeth when she sees 6th Form girls at DSs school wearing clothes to school that make them look like they just fell out of a nightclub.

DW was talking to the newly appointed Head of Careers (a man) yesterday who has a young DD at the school and is known to be a bit of a stickler for school uniform. DW told him that he needs to advise the 6th Form girls to make sure they dont dress like a secretary when going for university or work experience interviews. Dress like a serious player and you will be treated like one. The Head of Careers was very interested in what DW had to say because as a man he felt uncomfortable criticising what girls wear.

Women have a hard time being taken seriously in business and professional settings. Making sure you wear serious professional clothes and take extreme care at sending the right signals about your seniority matters a lot. Humans are animals and we size each other up in the blink of an eye. What you wear matters in minute detail in expressing your position, power and authority.

Beta am not entirely sure how to take that comment. Yes I wear scrubs for occasional patient contact between cases, as do anaesthetists, my consultants and theatre staff. For morning and evening rounds, I am in trousers and blouse (not a 'top' but a suit blouse). Nurses are in blue or navy blue uniforms with none of the ward staff in own clothes. I cannot see how I am matching their attire. In scrubs, I can appreciate I am indistinguishable from other theatre people per se, but with the addition of a stethoscope I would have thought would been more identifiable with anaesthetists than theatre staff (who patients generally only see once they have been called to theatre).

My irritation at this is not at the specific patient per se, rather that subconsciously large swathes of the population still hold very embedded ideas of appropriate roles for gender. Even in people of my own age group, there is this natural assumption that man = doctor, woman = nurse. It is this that makes the feminist in me despair on occasion.

Ah, were these private encounters?

Also still fascinated about the theatre nurse jump.

What does a secretary dress like? In my experience you cannot tell a persons position from the way they dress in an office environment. I have often seen women in high positions dress in a more relaxed manner than women in a lower position.

That's because they can LilBB.

They've proved themselves, whereas the juniors haven't yet.

Its the same in IT. Some people think that the young 19 year old male apprentice is more knowledgable than me.

I wish I knew what the answer was.

I do kind of agree with you MoreBeta, in that a certain attire gives off a certain image in the workplace. But that image and what constitutes "professional" attire has been constructed by men. Judging people on what they look like is also patriarchal. And as this was posted in feminism that view should be challenged.

(I too am wondering about the theatre nurse jump)

Plus springbok has said that these attitudes remain, depite the fact that she is wearing normal "professional" gear and she actually tells them who she is!

So you have to dress unlike a secretary in order to be taken seriously? To prove your worthy of more responsibilty? Because secretaries don't want to go higher in their careers? A secretay is not a worthwhile job to have? What a load of bull. Of course it's important to come across as professional and make an effort in an interview but sooner or later it comes downs to ability. You could be shit at your job but dressing well won't make people forget and promote you.

Ive been in my job 5 years in a male dominated environment and have never power dressed yet still manage to gain promotion. You know why cos I'm good at my job and work damn hard not cos my arse looks good in heels and a pencil skirt.

I feel your pain springboksaplenty. I work in IT and it's irritating how often it is assumed my male admin guy is the techie and I'm the admin person. Even though I have obviously a female name, I am still referred to as "he" or "Dear Sir" in emails and those who don't like the answers I give them tend to want to complain to my boss who they assume is male. My line manager is
a) female
b) will cheerfully admit she does not know one end of a computer from another.

However, IT is still pretty much a boy's own club, despite the vast numbers of women who work in it. I look forward to the day when I gently explain that I am the expert and not be met with a puzzled expression.

My Standard introduction has changed since when I first qualified. I used to introduce myself just with my first name [cringe] but to be honest was then being handed bed pans practically so now it's 'hello I'm Dr Springbok' with an occasional 'one of the surgeons on call today' thrown in for good measure. I believe strongly in professional attire at work (don't get me started on trainers!) but I am a bit surprised to hear the opinion echoed that I need to wear clothes that mirror mens professional attire in order to reinforce my self in my role.

I'm not sure why standard was capitalised. It's not that special. Or patented.

I do feel you should be able to wear clean, comfortable clothes of your choice in any job and be treated with respect as an individual whatever your role and whether you are male or female. I really do hate the idea of having to conform to someone else's idea of a dress code. However, my wishes do not IME mirror reality. I have often found, much as I dislike it, that to get things done the way I want, I need to dress in a certain manner. I don't wear pencil skirts and heels because it really isn't my taste even if it looks great on others- IMO also that isn't really necessary to be smart or to power dress in any way, trousers and flat shoes if that is what people prefer to wear, works just as well.

I don't think in your case it is a matter of how you are dressing at work that is leading people to assume you are a nurse, it is really very strange that after being told you are a doctor, you are still being addressed as nurse. I can't say anything similar to that has ever happened to me. It is almostl ike a deliberate insult in fact (treating you as though your qualifications were at a different level to what they are).

If it isn't your dress, your manner, not that you are omitting to make a point of telling patients your position in the hosital that is causing the problem,I have no idea what is.

Sorry I don't know the answer but I understand it annoying you

Springbok - I think that view that you just need to change what you wear is bull if that helps. I can see that for all individuals dressing appropriately for the situation is important. But to suggest that the reason you are experiencing sexism is because you are wearing the wrong clothes, and that it would all be solved by the way you dress is .

Actually having thought on this, I think part of the problem is people falling back on gender stereotypes. Almost by definition, the time I see patients is when they are stressed and ill, potentially requiring an operation. Especially over the previous few days, with the added stress of being at night. What is coming to the fore is not someones reasonable considered self but a person who is (rightly) distracted by other things. So their subconscious mind falls back to what it perceives my role should be based on my gender. I also realise that I work in an especially male dominated specialty in an already male dominated field.

If it's bones your knuckle callus probably isn't impressive enough yet, give it time.

I should quickly add that this isn't the vast marjority of my patients thankfully. Most of my patients are lovely and I very rarely have this problem in clinics. It is just that it happens on a fairly frequent enough basis that I have had to consciously change certain aspects of my consultation style in order to further reduce it.

This also reminded me of a very lovely 86 yr old lady who chastised her granddaughter for calling me a nurse and telling me she wished she was my age as she always wanted to be a doctor but wasn't allowed in those days and basically got married off instead. So at least we have made progress :)

Ah bruxeur that perhaps is the problem. Plus I own a stethoscope which must completely throw them.

Nonsense, perfectly good tourniquet in times of crisis.

It's hard to change people's attitudes but you can change the way you feel about those attitudes and how you respond. One way of looking at things that might help you manage this, springboks, is to turn it around and think that it's not the case that your patients don't think you can be a doctor but that nurses are almost always women so, if 90% of nurses are female, when a patient is looking for a nurse, they're looking for a female person. If you happen to be female and around and they're under stress, they might shout for you.

It's the same issue many women face at work with secretaries / admin staff, who are invariably always female everywhere I've worked. If someone comes into the office looking for a secretary / admin, they're usually looking for a woman and if I or other female colleagues are around and inconveniently female, they'll address their questions to us, even though none of us work in admin roles. I've never seen it happen to male colleagues. It grates but my solution is to be as unhelpful as possible so they never bother me again. I'm never rude, just 'unforthcoming' with any help and information . I have perfected a feigned clueless demeanour that I model on the stereotypical man - not my own DH, I hasten to add - when confronted with a pile of laundry or dirty dishes.

That doesn't explain the other instances where you actually tell people you are a doctor and they refuse to address you that way. That's just bizarre, I'm afraid. Especially since usually when you meet doctors in hospital, they're announced (e.g. 'the doctor will be around to see you later' etc) or introduce themselves clearly as doctors.

Now that I have had some sleep and less tired, I think that it just is reflection of base prejudices. Thinking about it the people who I have repeatedly told and still don't grasp it are usually our acute admissions. At other times, patients have made the misconception, been corrected (most have been thoroughly embarrassed) and not done it again. And I very rarely have had this happen in clinic.

But at night, or during oncalls, I'm seeing patients at very stressful times and their 'reasonable' equal opportunities section of their brain has switched off :)

Get what you're saying Springbok, but it still illustrates people's underlying prejudices that they will draw on in their wider life. It's like when people 'accidentally' use racist/sexist/homophobic language. It doesn't 'just slip out' if it's not there in the first place.

springbok - I don't disagree with much at all on the thread as DW faced exactly the same problem. Your age and your sex are against you. It will get easier as you get older. Much of the professional world is male dominated, male views prevail and men set the rules including the unwritten ones about 'what a doctor/consultant wears'.

I met the female consultant in her office and was dressed as follows:

First meeting: Tailored summer business dress (Hobbs I think) bobbed obviously coifeured hair, simple but good quality pure gold necklace and earings, 2 inch spikey heels.

Second meeting: Grey well cut skirt suit with jacket on, hair, heels and jewelery same as before.

I did see her for 10 minutes in her scrubs and she introduced herself as 'Hello, I Miss xxxx the consultant and I will be carrying out your operation today'.

You can't do much about scrubs but your flat shoes, no makeup, no jacket, possibly no jewelery and maybe your hair tied back would make you look very dressed down and quite young. Higher heels is definitley not nurse attire and adding 'power' signals in your clothes and hair will all help.

Sorry but some people still can't quite get it through their heads that a woman can be a doctor/consultant. Its tiresome and horrible but the female consultant I spoke about quite clearly had carefully chosen her attire to signal 'I am a consultant'. She was dressed 'up' as a business woman.

Sounds like you were taking very careful note of this consultant's attire MoreBeta.

But stilettos with scrubs and Pure Gold Jewellery ?? What??! sorry, that sounds like something out of a poor-quality B-movie. Nobody would ever wear that in RL! If you wore than when on nights, beyond not being able to walk as fast as you wanted to across the dodgy, poorly-lit car-park, you'd look like you'd got half dressed but forgotten to change out of your pyjamas!

Anyway why are you all trying to problem-solve for springbok? The problem is... that we live in a patriarchy. It is not her fault she gets mistaken for a nurse!!! "Power signals" in the medical world aren't things in your clothes or your hair. Or what sort of stethoscope you have: maybe a nurse is unlikely to have a Littmann Cardiology 2000 or whatever it's called now, but a medical student might well do.

Medical power signals are when you have a long retinue of junior doctors and medical students trailing after you like baby ducklings, frantically writing down everything you say. Or when you arrive and all the other staff shut up, acknowledge you and look at you expectantly. When the secretaries actually say yes when you ask them to do something. There is not much you can do about all these things when you are on a rotational training programme or on call on a strange ward and the other staff don't know you very well.

Basically - I think that doctory power signals = other people giving you respect, more than any particular style of dress. I can think of too many terminally scruffy consultants, and ultra-glam dieticians, for the "power dressing" rule to apply to the medical world.