being a sah is not considered a legitimate pursuit anymore...

[AliGrylls]

I am fed up of people thinking that being a SAHP is the easy option - I am a firm believer it is not an easy option. Most SAHM I know have what I would describe as quite a rough time of it. Hubbie leaving the house at 6/7 am; not getting home until 7/8 and woman is expected to do all the jobs she was expected to do 40/50 years ago, ie, washing, ironing etc - except for the fact that DH wants the children to be kept up so he can play with them and say what a good father he is.

The whole notion that being a working parent is so much harder is not true because while you are out working there is someone else looking after your children for you. You are not trying to do them both simultaneously. What is hard is trying to fit a job around your children, which is what most women want so they can enjoy their lives and their children (I think!)

A woman who chooses to SAH after children start school is not lazy, she is merely trying to redress the fact that she has spent the first few years of her children's life knee deep in nappies and sleep deprived having worked the 17 hour day that was expected of her. When her children start school she will probably be back to working 8-10 hour days that most people work.

Lastly, there is actually no shame in being a SAHP and it can be fulfilling and stimulating. It is just a question of whether one wants to treat is a proper job or a millstone around the neck. Is a job really that much more intellectually stimulating? Surely, after a few years any job loses its ability to stimulate due to the fact it becomes a process? Unless of course you are in academia or a creative job. Except for financial reasons the main reason to go back to work is to have a break from the children / have a career. Neither of which are bad reasons just please admit that this is the reason and not use the fact that you obviously believe you have the intellectual high ground over someone who chooses to SAH.

I strongly believe the above is a feminist issue and I think that being a SAH deserves the same level of respect that being a working parent gets, but it doesn't. Feminists please back up the fact that a woman has a right to choose and she should not be guilted into the modern day notion that working is all and being a full-time mother is not a legitimate pursuit.

I assumed the op was talking about tje view in some feminist circles that having children is somehow giving in to the aptriarchy, and not going to paid work is disrespecting women who fought for the right to work.
Like staying at home is unfeminist and letting the side down.

garlicnutter 'I used to wonder "what SAHPs do all day" until I started standing in for my friend while she and her H went away. They had 3 DC aged 10-16 when I first did it. I was gobsmacked. Lunch prep, kit checks, breakfasts, school run with the youngest, shop, housework, a couple of hours to myself, school run, tea, homework, cook, supper, activity transport x 3, friends & emotional issues, bedtimes, laundry.'

But a Working parent does all that too

That was reply to fluffles

I didnt actually get a real choice about which i did due to sn and disability. It grates sometimes.

I said that, peppa.

When I was last on maternity leave I had a clean house, children were at school on time wearing their own uniforms (not each others), tea was on the table at tea time, food was in the cupboards, ironing was done and I had time to play with my baby, organise a festival and have an hour or so to myself in the evenings. I was essentially a SAHM.

I now work full time in a job 40 mins from home. We are always late for school, tea isn't ready till 7.30/8pm, children don't get to bed till well gone 9, then I start the ironing, cleaning, making next day's lunches and all the other stuff that I used to be able to during the day. I never, ever get time to sit down and watch TV. I only come on Mumsnet as a quick skive when I'm supposed to be answering emails.

I know which I'd rather be given the financial choice. Feminism hasn't liberated me from my household shackles, rather it's given society the expectation that women can (and should) have it all. We're damned if we work and damned if we don't, and woe betide us if we're not domestic goddesses whichever choice we make. Bugger the lot of it - I'm off to de-weed my garden.

In the last 13 years I have been a sahp for approximately 4 years and in part time or full time work for the other 9.
When my dds were babies I think it was better for all of them that I was with them and I actively wanted that first year or so with them. For my family and my future it is better for all of us now that I work.
From the same 13 years if I had only worked when not having a child under school age I would only have worked for 2 years. As I had my children young - 21 when dd1 was born - I think that would have permanently crippled my independance, earning power and career path. I have made what I think are quite good choices and I've seen life on both sides of the fence. I absolutely disagree that working mothers get more respect than sahms. For a start - I don't need to attack the sahm position to justify my own - how does what a sahm does affect my choice? However the sahm position seems always to attack the basic building blocks of the wohm position, which is that somebody else CAN look after your children adequately whilst you are doing something else. The sahm choice is justified on the basis that they are doing a 'better' thing. It has to be. Otherwise it would be a purely self seeking choice wouldn't it - and we aren't very good at owning up to those. Same goes for working outside the home. How many women ave you heard describing their work only in terms of tehir personal fulfillment? We always bring money in to it as well and usually it's the first thing we mention.
Furthermore I've done both and I know perfectly well what is more mentally and physically demanding. I also know what both positions cost. I sometimes think that when people say sahms need more respect they mean that sahms should enjoy some of the advantages that working parents achieve - higher income? higher sense of self worth? better pension? more senior and fulfilling career position viewed over a life time? Well tough - everything comes with a cost. You do not get to have a totally advantageous position, it doesn't exist.
Being a parent is a rewarding but tiring experience. Motherhood has changed who I am. I have made my choices accordingly but I don't expect anybody else to live with them or celebrate them except for me. Of course I don't expect people to think they are doing better than me either.

I thought the early part of this thread was quite refreshing and inspiring, including the OP.

I was a SAHP until my youngest started school, and have since worked P/T with children in playgroups and school as TA. Next year my hours are being drastically reduced, but beginning to think that might help me get more on top of things at home (badly needed) - Worried about the finances though. Could try working as supply teacher, but slightly wary of increased responsibility, on top of looking after my own kids. It's not easy for many of us to get the juggling right, so, as women, we shouldn't give one another a hard time over the choices we each make. Feels like there's quite a lot of pressure to "go back to work"/ work outside the home/ get a proper job !

Good to see modern feminism embracing these aspects more, I feel that's a really positive change for all women.

I didnt think anyone is giving anyone a hard time.

SAHP do a very important job - that needs to be respected. 99% of the time it makes the working parents job much easier to do.

I would love a SAHW . Anyone interested?

my DH would like to be a SAHP - I am not sure if he realises it's more than just looking after a kid. However, it's not a competition is it? I am sure being a lone parent is harder than being a SAHP but presumably every situaton is different and some 'lone parents' have help or partners or helpful exes, just as some sahp have supportive other halves/parents/cleaners etc.

Some people are lazy, some sahp are lazy, some working parents have a really tough time.

Even people who "are lazy"/ get less done than other people may have their/our reasons for it.
It's so easy to criticize others which is usually something we do in order to justify ourselves or feel good about ourselves.
There are usually reasons why things are as they are in people's lives, even if we - or even they themselves - don't know what those are.
Live and let live seems a good approach !

I think part of the problem is that we seem to be pigeonholed into making either/or choices, as if one has to be a better choice than the other. The reality is that as a society we need all these roles and they are all valuable and completely interdependent.

We live in a capitalist society. Money is what makes the world go round. So we need a significant number of people working, but full employment is not actually a desirable thing at all. If every single person were in paid employment, our society would collapse. PTAs, Board of Governors, Meals on Wheels, even the life boat service - there are a massive number of roles essential to our infrastructure that rely on an unpaid army of volunteers, often made up by those not in paid employment.

Someone has to bring up the children in this society in which 80% (I think) of people choose to have children. IF a mother doesn't want to do it and wants to work, she SHOULD be able to. No way should be more limited than the other parent purely because she is female. If she chooses to work in paid employment then she has to pay a professional (or if she's extremely lucky maybe she has family who can help out). But if she doesn't want to work in paid employment, given that someone has to look after her child, it seems bonkers to deny her the opportunity to that over some misguided notion that all women should be in paid employment. All people are not in paid employment and surely a loving willing mother is an ideal person to care for her own child. The only problem I see with the role of SAHM is when a woman is forced into that role because she wants to work but cannot find employment, make it fit round her family life, or afford the childcare, and when her partner (sod what anyone else thinks) doesn't support the choice and devalues it.

There is room in our society for all these roles and we need them all to continue.

Harriet Do you have a partner ? if so what is their role ?

IMO Feminism is a two-pronged attack. It aims to

1. increase the diversity of opportunities for women and girls so they have REAL choice (not just legal choice) to do what they want with their lives.

2. increase the profile and respect due to what is regarded as "traditional" women's work, eg. being a SAHM, nurse, primary school teacher, dressmaker etc and erase this stupid notion that women have not contributed to society in the same way as men.

And that's why I heart Fsm - it's just common sense..

joaninha That's a great summary of what feminism should/could be.
Maybe so far it's made more strides in the first arena though.
Perhaps there's still a lot more to do on changing attitudes around traditional women's roles ?

juggling - thanks :)

The second issue is hugely frustrating I know! I always remember having a bit of a feminist awakening when I was in a History lesson at school. After having learnt the dates and details of yet another invention I piped up with the question: "what did women do then?" The teacher looked at me all apologetically and said "I'm sorry to say it but they just looked after the children".

That statement told me all I needed to know about the status of women in history, whose work was valued and whose not. I guess it never occurred to him to do a bit of research, whip out a weaving loom and some scary factoids on the perils of childbirth. It would have been a helluva lot more interesting to me than the interminable list of battles that we had to endure!.

sm, I would not say I have a chip on my shoulder about anything. I love being a SAHM and I find it really rewarding. However, just recently I have found myself biting my tongue though when I have heard people (usually working mums) saying things like being at home is: a) not stimulating (I think it is if you make it and are thoughtful in how you teach your children); b) so much easier than working. Maybe in some ways it is easier, but if I was working I would be paying for someone to look after my children and it would be a full-time job, therefore being a SAHP is by definition a full-time job.

Also, I do think being a SAHP more is expected. Not so much DH (because he is sympathetic) but my mum frequently asks me about what jobs I have done in a day and I have heard friends saying things like "DH will be cross because the house is so chaotic". Of my friends who SAH, I know of some men who basically don't expect to have to do anything when they come home (one friend even told me that her DH had said if she wanted to go away for the weekend she had to arrange childcare - how ridiculous is that).

All I think is that being a SAHP does not get any respect. And also I am fed up of people saying to me - "I couldn't SAH, I wouldn't find it stimulating". To me it is equivalent to the orphanage insult.

riven, your point about how feminists see staying at home as letting the side down is also what I am getting at (as per my last paragraph). I have not gone on about this so much but I do consider that my antecedents, aside from fighting for the right to vote, also fought for the right for women to choose between SAH and working mothers.

Completely agree with you joanhina. I think you have summed up my view of feminism in two sentences.

Thanks for this thread

I catch myself saying 'I'm just a SAHM at the moment' when meeting new people and it's so wrong and for some reason I feel the need to say it's just until dd reaches school age when actually I'd love to continue being a SAHM until both dcs leave home!

I couldn't give a shiny shit what others think of my lifestyle, really I couldn't.

I don't work, haven't for donkey's, won't again. I have a fair number of kids, big house, horses, land etc to maintain and parents who like me nearby and a DH who earns the kind of money that me working would render ludicrous.

Why on EARTH would I care what others think?

I would love to have horses,land and a big house -I dont
But I do have a lovely DP and 2 gorgeous DC and a job I love -we are all different.
I think OP you need to work on your self esteem. I had 2 years of mat leave and worked very partime when my DC were little but now I would be very bored if I was still at home . I work in healthcare and am passionate about what I do and the difference I make to the lives of others. If I say I love my job and I say I would be unstimulated at home I am talking about myself not casting aspertions about you .

Good post Sarah - quite.

Whatever makes you and your family happy .

BTW, doing the horses is pretty full time, I just don't make any money doing it!

I had horses Indigo - a looong time ago - they are a full time job
I lost my last lovely boy in very sad circumstances and I just cant put myself through that loss again
love horses love their smell but I make do with cats these days