"feminine" jobs/professions.Nursing,childcare....are the reasons that they are paid less,despite generally requiring graduate qualifications,an indication of societal devaluation of "womens work?"

[MavisEnderby]

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Wamster I'm a nurse and you have managed to offend me on just about every level. Thanks

I work extremely hard at my job, am currently working towards getting my degree, I work in the community and am a lone worker.

I think as a public servant of course our pay should be on par with teachers, the police, fire service......

I don't think the general public have much of an understanding of what my job entails, we care for patients who are dying and wish to remain at home, we care for patients with complex wounds, manage chronic illnesses, provide a continence and catheter service, venepuncture, management of pleurex drains as well as all the problem solving and liasing. The job is always changing and we work hard to continuously improve and build upon the service.

I work 3 full days a week and last year earnt less than £15000.

This is not about how hard nurses work- they are just like every other worker in that some work hard and others do not- I just don't understand why nurses should be in same pay bracket to those who do dangerous jobs where their lives are at stake on a regular basis like firemen and the police.

Please do not try to tell me that nurses put their lives on the line in the same way as these people because they do not.

Sorry, that should be fire men and firewomen, just so that I am not accused of sexism.

You are entitled to your opinion Wamster. I do not agree with you. Nurses tend to spend more time doing hands-on work than police and firefighters. Their job is also very physical and they are more exposed to illness, therefore they are in the front line when it comes to health being compromised.

Hang on, so first we nurses are crap because we aren't as marvellous as doctors, now it's because we aren't as at risk as firefighters and the police.

Quick question Wamster. Do you consider Radiographers and Physiotherapists to be professionals?

This has descended into ridiculousness now. Nurses are wonderful, aren't they? A massive sense of inferiority when it comes to the medical profession yet they think they deserve more money to people who risk their lives like the police and fire services. What tosh.
Nurses do NOT face the very real danger of losing their lives every shift like a policeman or fireman (woman) do. These jobs are inherently more risky.

I'm sorry but I think to suggest otherwise is seriously misguided. Do I think a man or woman who risks their lives in a very, very real way deserves to be paid more than a person who carries out nursing procedures? Of course I do!
And the only reason I bring this up is in response to the whinging about how nurses should be paid the same. What an insult to those who genuinely risk their lives.

Answer my question please Wamster.

As for hands-on work, er, are nurses the only people who work with their hands, then?

Am a bit at the idea that it's only dangerous jobs that deserve money. Hand out in A&E on a Saturday night or in an acute mental health ward and you may change your perception.

No Wamster, nurses spend less time doing paperwork/in cars/waiting for a call than police and firefighters and more time nursing. I am beginning to think that you are being deliberately obtuse.

Now, you have stated your opinion re danger money. Do you think that anyone should be paid more than police and fire service? If so who?

Well obviously, those involved in occupations deserve good pay and other benefits. Also, those who have specialist knowledge and skills in certain areas that few others possess do i.e. premier league footballers or lawyers or doctors.

Nurses do not really fall into either than these categories as their jobs are not inherently dangerous and the very fact that there are so many nurses shows that most people could do the job given the training.
And I'm sorry but so effing what if the police and firefighters hang about a lot of the time? It's what they may be called to do that gets them the pay.

This is not only my view; it is the view of the system in which we live. Supply and demand I think it is called.

Members of the TA may be called to do dangerous stuff, but I don't think that they should be paid a lot of money just for being in the TA. Also nurses working A&E at weekends and in mental health are working in dangerous jobs.

As for it being the view of the system in which we live? Duh, that is what is being discussed here: Societal devaluation of "women's work" leading to lesser pay.

As for your comment on supply and demand: Demand for nursing staff in this country is greater than the supply of people going into nursing. Which is why we import nurses into the country. This is not the case for police/fire services where applications for posts far outstrip positions available.

However possibly due to societal devaluation of women's work (or the fact that society is more concerned with protecting property), instead of making sure that nurses are properly renumerated (therefore making it an attractive career option for citizens), they would rather bring in nurses from poorer parts of the world. This is pants because some of those being cared for, in particular the elderly, have difficulty understanding accents and we poach staff from countries that have paid for nurses training and where they are very much needed.

Well, I'd prefer not to think of nursing as 'women's work' as such as there are obviously men who are also nurses. Similarly, non 'women's work' such as the law and medicine have women working within their fields.

To call it jobs such as nursing 'women's work' is to cloud the issue.
The issue is this: nursing is not paid in the same way as medicine because, frankly, far fewer people are clever enough to do medicine whereas a far higher number could become nurses if they so wished. It is simple supply and demand in that the more 'exclusive' the skill, the higher it is paid.

And why should it not be this way? Why do nurses -whose entry qualifications are far lower and study for far less time- think they deserve the pay of doctors who have higher qualifications and have studied a lot longer? It's taking the mickey!

As long as women are able to enter medicine, which is only right and correct as nobody should be denied the chance to do this by virtue of their gender, I don't see the problem.

I also have zero issue with a person who risks their lives getting more pay than those whose jobs carries far less risk.

It doesn't matter where the nurses come from as such, the fact is, supply is being met.

Even if your view is that nurses should be British (no problem with foreign nurses myself), how on earth is raising the standard to degree level going to help the shortage? Can't get nurses as it is.

There was a time when to be a student nurse meant having a reasonably good wage, now a student nurse gets paid less and will probably have to pay back course fees in the future to boot if on a degree.

It would be better, frankly, to examine just why a nurse needs a degree and how absolutely wrong it is for them to spend the beginning of their lives in debt rather than swallow the bs that 'all nurses need degrees' Degrees are for the academic, not nurses who require very high technical skills. Apprenticeships would be better.

Belief in fairness and equality doesn't appear to be your strong point does it wamster? along with critical thinking skills.

The demand for nurses is met by recruiting nurses from less developed countries such as Malaysia and southern Africa.

These countries have trained nurses at home to cope with their needs, by recruiting from these countries we diminish the quality of healthcare that these countries can provided so that they have the problem of never quite having enough nurses but meanwhile have trained them so have incurred costs.

Of course if you are an out and out capitalist that concept wont bother you because it is all supply and demand.

As you dont actually have a clue what nursing involves I hope you dont mind if I dont answer your question again about why nurses need degrees. Fortunately that question is debated and answered by people who do have a clue. Even Dave Cameron agrees with that one.

OK, boysrock since you feel the need to be insulting, I shall be insulting, too. I'd rather have my realistic view of the world than your 'critical thinking' skills any day of the week. People are paid according to supply and demand and if you're too dumb to see this fact of life then that is your problem, not mine.

Also, do you not think that the reason the government wants nursing degrees is because it saves money? No doubt it is cheaper to have nurses on degree programmes because they will have to pay the fees back at the end.
THAT'S real critical thinking.

Let me do a bit more critical thinking, oh yes; is it not possible that the government wants to offload all the dirty little jobs the medical profession doesn't wish to dirty its hands with onto nurses because it is cheaper?
Are they actually going to pay nurses more for these extra tasks? For example, are they going to pay nurses at the same rate that a doctor receives for completing a task? If not, and nurses just lay back and take this discrepancy, then I am afraid it is not a profession. As professions should really have only one interest at their hearts- its members welfare!

Actually wamster I am fed up of you insulting nurses, you have raised questions they have been answered, instead of developing debate you have nit picked further, you have further insulted nurses and nursing. Yet with every post it has become more obvious that you have absolutely no idea about nursing.

This is actually not a thread about nursing per se, however you have consistently ignored any other "feminine profession" in your quest to insult and belittle nurses.

I do not need you to think we are wonderful beings or any one else, there has been enough of that patronising over the years.

So as a member of the profession I have decided to defend that profession from attacks based on ignorance.

Ignorance? You are the ignorant one if you can't see that the profession is being used as cheap labour to undertake the nasty little tasks doctors no longer wish to do, without, crucially paying the nurses accordingly.
You are the ignorant one if you cannot see that separating nurse training from the hospital environment is harmful.
Oh, yes, it all works in theory but the reality is that the university doesn't talk to the ward and vice versa.
I've had about as much as I can take of this sycophancy now, I am off.

Nasty little tasks? What are they exactly? Patient care?
That isn't nasty at all, but I doubt you would understand that.

Patient care? Don't make me laugh. Nursing care these days is shite. I've witnessed it at first hand. I am so glad that a doctor appeared here to back up the prescribing water incident (I respect them not going into detail about it).

I don't give a monkey's if my nurse has a degree; if I'm not kept hydrated, fed, and clean while in hospital (I know let's blame the HCA's for these things not being done, sorry but this does not wash with me- if nurses are autonomous the buck stops with them; being a professional doesn't just mean glory-it means taking the blame, too), or a member of my family is, I don't want to know.

Ahh right you have had a bad experience? That explains the level of hostility towards nurses then.

What can I say but I am sorry that you experienced that, we aren't all like that and yes I would agree that the buck for poor nursing care stops with qualified nurses. I have never disputed the water prescribing incident either, that was mid staffs.

Wamster, if people were paid according to supply and demand then police and firefighters would be paid less than as there are more applicants for these jobs than people going into nursing which is why we have to recruit from abroad.

Look it's obvious that you have a serious problem with nurses, so any attempt to discuss the topic with you is not going to work.

I am a nurse. A mental health nurse.
I am a ward manager on a secure forensic psychiatric ward.
I see both sides and I think there is a middle ground.
I believe - from my experience - that nursing becoming degree only is costing us some potentially excellent - if not academic - nurses. These nurses we are losing are the 'jobbing staffers' - very good at their jobs and spend years gaining experience and expertise in their area without desire to advance up the management ladder.

I think nurses should still be able to enter the profession with diplomas with opportunities to advance further depending on willingness and ability to undertake further study at degree and masters level.
I did the Dip He, have since topped up to degree and am currently undertaking masters in Advanced Practice - hence I am a manager.
I think there is a place for less academically minded but still competent and able practitioners in nursing.
On a side note - although my 'area' is predominantly male nurses, our management positions are held be 80% females. Feminism holds strong in forensic nursing.
Oh, and on another side note, I cannot 'run away' from threat. I am trained in de-escalation and management of violence and expected - required - to face the daily hostility and violence and manage it.