"feminine" jobs/professions.Nursing,childcare....are the reasons that they are paid less,despite generally requiring graduate qualifications,an indication of societal devaluation of "womens work?"

[MavisEnderby]

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If there is a shortage of midwives then why don't hospitals start paying midwives more and make it a more attraactive career option?

TA, you can ask that question about loads of jobs.

I can only suppose that the powers that be, consider that the function of midwives, SW's, teachers etc., is simply not important enough to make it more attractive.

When I was at uni studying social work we got a bursary (in NI so not sure about rest of UK). However, we were then told that the Health Trusts were going to put a ban on employing any recent graduates as there were too many fresh graduates and too few jobs. So then the rumours started that the bursary may be scrapped in years to come.

SW isn't a badly paid job here, but for the money there are many many lows.

Making something more attractive by throwing £ at it isn't the same as making it a valued career though... although to some people there is a clear link.

There has been some research that found the reason women got less was that they didnt negotiate, whereas the men negotiated much more for better pay, conditions, etc.

Also, women didnt put themselves forward, and didnt 'brag' and 'self-promote' about how brilliant they were (whereas men did this a lot more).

Part of the reason is due to society's expectations of women; being nice, caring, not pushy, not 'selfish' blah blah. Infact women are sometimes punished by society if they do negotiate and self-promote. So it is a difficult balance.

The way we could help this is to all negotiate and self-promote more. Always push to get a bit more, and never begrudge or punish women who do well (admire and copy them instead!).

Push for fair recognition of women everywhere.

HHLimbo, there's plenty of research that shows that when women do put themselves forward, as you imply, they are seen as arrogant, pushy and downright unfeminine. Also with a hint of troublemaking. And they don't get the payrises.

Basically, we don't get the payrises because we are women. However we behave, assertively or not. We don't get them because of what we are, not what we do.

Reminds me of a thread the other day (not on feminist section).

Someone was pondering as to why their gardener (doing fairly unskilled gardening work - lawn mowing etc) was paid twice as much as their cleaner, when they were doing jobs that to her seemed quite similar in terms of skill outgoings etc.

The answer came straight back - because gardeners are usually men, and cleaners are usually women. And it's as simple as that.

I think people are just prepared to pay men more for stuff, is the bottom line?

Maybe men aren't as prepared to work for little. The other side of the coin.

Totally agree, was talking to a colleague today (we are community nurses) about the fact that I am trying to get a plumber out and am struggling to find one that charges less than £75 an hour which compared to what I get which is about £12 an hour for 3 years hard training plus 8 years experience countless CPD and having the responsibility of caring for some of societies most vulnerable people .

Its not fair and I think the fact that nursing mainly female dominated is why it is so poorly paid.

HerBex - Ive noticed your posts before and generally I like them, they are interesting and add to the debate.

But on this occasion I feel its a bit defeatist.

Social norms are malleable. Look how much has changed already in the last 100/50/20 years.

So this is an attitude we CAN change. If all women are negotiating and self-promoting, they can hardly call it un-feminine can they?

This is why I am watching the apprentice with interest - very good examples there.

With public sector jobs, I think its important essential to be involved in your union.

I think the apprentice is a pretty awful example, isn't it! I guess the men are as bad, that's the silver lining ... but they are competing to work with a man who thinks women ask for too much when they want maternity leave.

I thought Susan was good - she is really smart and able, but others (the men!) ignored her because she was a bit mouse-like. But lately she has been much more forceful when she makes an insight, and her recommendation was taken up, noticed and commended.

Mmm. We can agree to disagree!

Tba, I think they all come across as pretty dim, grasping and unpleasant. It gets my goat they're put forward as 'Britain's brightest' - yeah right. I hope girls at school don't aspire to be like that.

I do agree with you women need to be better at putting themselves forward but HerBeX is right ... if you go into it thinking you can behave exactly like a man, you are likely to get a short sharp shock, imo.

LOL sorry Limbo, don't mean to sound defeatist.

Without completely derailing the thread, I always wince at the shoes the women wear in the Apprentice. I do not how 4 inch stillettos (sp?) are practical footwear for work.

GAG - I am a doctor and have personally prescribed water (not recently needed to do so thankfully) . There was a big story about it on TV recently too.

Jenniec79 - But that is surely an extreme case and nothing to do with nurses having degrees.

Am a bit that on a feminist board, a female dominated profession attaining a higher level of education could possibly be seen as a bad thing.

You asked for proof - admittedly I only have a little and on a part of the discussion, but provided as requested.

I didn't comment on the level of education of the women I work alongside. I always have viewed education as a good thing, and the more that's available to anyone the better. I'm not sure about removing the alternatives here though.

I have no problems whatsoever with degree-level education in nursing, but I do know that some of the best, most caring and most capable nurses I have had the priviledge to work with have come through the old SEN route. I do think it is a shame that that option is now closed off, preventing the less academically able, but caring, dedicated women (and men) from considering nursing as a career.

Will the old diploma bursaries also dissappear alongside the diploma courses? With increasing tuition fees this would also have an effect on the views and demographics of potential applicants, surely?

Sorry, I feel a bit of a threadjacker there!

A realated issue I feel is that of the attack on public sector pensions.
I read a very interesting piece in the Graun pointing out that according to the Gov. the 'gold plated' pensions at 60 are unsustainable for some public servants (teachers, nurses, admin/civil servants), yet the proposed changes do not apply to the 'uniformed' public services (army, police, fire) who, quelle surprise! are largely male dominated.

Helen also interests me, she is very 'feminine' and she did a great pitch last week and won it for her team by a lead of about £200,000. Tom is also interesting because he is pleasant and intelligent and not at all brash or grasping.

As for Suralun, he really put his foot in it with the maternity thing, and showed himself as completely out of date, (was it Amstrad he set up?) unimaginative and stuck in his ways. I wonder why he is now advertising for a business partner rather than an 'apprentice'..

Some say that stilletoes (sp?) give extra height which is helpful in business, but I think its just about showing off on t' telly.

Anyway, the thing is that we need to self-promote and negotiate. It is hard, as women are not used to doing this and it feels strange, and sometimes other people find it unexpected, but that is what needs doing, whether personally or through unions. Those who negotiate can expect a pay increase of 7% on average (and this increases over the span of a career).

Goth, is it a higher level of education? Or just a different one? Personally, it seems insulting to me to suggest that academic study necessarily makes you a better nurse. Not necessarily the same skill set at all.

Cross-post.

HH, it's fine to say we need women to self-promote and negotiate. It doesn't always work out though. What we really need is for women not to be penalized for expressing thesmelves and conducting themselvs like their male colleagues.

Pekkala - that is a very interesting point that these pension cuts are targetted at public services and not the (male dominated) uniformed services (army police etc).

It seems this government (all male but one) are doing a complete hatchet job on women. They need correcting !

LRD - If you're going to uni and writing essays, doing exams, etc, you might as well come out with something worthwhile at the end of it. The gap between a Dip HE and degree is not so huge anyway. Also, as previously stated other health professionals have degrees, it's bringing nurses in line with them. I never noticed much hand wringing about physios and radiographers getting degrees, is it because they aren't seen as such 'feminine' 'caring' professions?

Getting rid of SEN's wasn't about uppity nurses wanting degrees, it was about getting HCA's to do the same work for much less money, a purely money saving exercise by management.