"feminine" jobs/professions.Nursing,childcare....are the reasons that they are paid less,despite generally requiring graduate qualifications,an indication of societal devaluation of "womens work?"

[MavisEnderby]

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Who's dreaming? Our statements are based on fact and first hand experience, your's are based on... I'm not quite sure.

Personally, I am quite happy to admit I know almost nothing about modern nursing practises.

wamster seems to feel a bit threatened by nurses. But why would he feel threatened when he is a 'so superior' doctor?

I would hate to be treated by someone like this.

I do know nurses get degrees though.

Is Wamster a doctor? That would surprise me as most decent doctors are far from scathing about nurses.

The doctors I work with view us with respect. not superior or inferior beings.

Wamsters views sound as though they are gleaned from tabloid papers.
Quite how he/she is going to avoid having medication prescribed by nurses in the future is a mystery though.

GothAnne - sorry, thread has moved on a lot but I wanted to reply to your post to me.

I'm not saying nurses don't need training and don't have highly specialized professional skills. What I am less sure is that these skills need to be packaged as academic skills, and it seems increasingly they are (unlike a medicine degree, which is unashamedly strongly vocational).

As I say, I'm probably seeing a rather negative side - skilled and professional nurses being told they are not good enough because they have not passed certain tests. That worries me. I don't think nurses who didn't have degrees were not professionals, I can't agree with that.

LRD - But you always had to pass certain tests, SRN training (it's been explained upthread that SRN are the old first level nurses, now all nurses are at this level) has always had a strong academic base, it just wasn't based in a university. As for students who are dyslexic, have other SN, you cannot argue that 1960's training which was very exam centric (yes, really) when most SNs hadn't even been heard of, was any better for them.

Nurse training attracts people from diverse backgrounds and there is often a big emphasis at the start on providing assistance to those who might otherwise lack the study skills. For mature students without qualifications, you always needed an Access to Higher Education course to get on the course anyway, so there's no big change for them.

Diploma have been in place for over 20 years now anyway and hand on heart, as someone who did the diploma and then did another course to get my degree, it really, really, isn't such a big leap. It's bringing us in line with the other professions and maybe, just maybe, it will help raise the status of the profession, which IMO, is one of the biggest problems we face, as this thread has sadly shown.

Another way of looking at it is not that these lower paid/status jobs are such because they are done by women, but are so because they are about caring and looking after people and the male jobs are more about making/protecting money. And that this state of affairs has come about because we live in a patriarchal society that places greater value on material wealth than people who for one reason or another are not contributing economically.

Such as the young, old and sick.

Dione - Yes that too. Especially childcare, where the pay is atrocious.

However, it doesn't entirely explain why, as a poster so clearly states upthread, doctors are heroes and nurses are equivalent to road sweepers.

I think it a combination of several factors, which makes fighting it so hard.

Goth - thanks for replying, I was worried I'd sound like certain other people being rude about nurses and that was not my aim!

I expect you're right that I've just noticed more dyslexic nurses getting help because there's an emphasis on study skills and getting people who need it help - that is really reassuring.

I just hate the idea that nurses need to be made more professional - it seems insulting. I do see what you're saying, that the status problem might be solved with more academic training, but I guess what I'm saying is, the problem with status just shouldn't be there - no matter how you set out an academic degree courses, nurses have always been skilled professionals.

It feels a bit like the current situation is saying 'look, you nurses, you're already highly trained and skilled, and badly paid - but just jump through a few more hoops and it'll all be fine, we'll all start respecting you'. Will it happen?

I do see what you're saying LRD . It would be nice to think that graduate level entry would help raise the standing although after last nights exchange I'm even more doubtful. I think it is a necessary step though, so that it is one less argument to counter.

If I go back to the example of police and customs who dont have to have 3 years training before being let loose, then yes it does seem as though we have to jump through yet more hoops and our pay is not on a parity with those jobs. I think the police is more of a natural comparison than medicine.

The police and customs, however, apart from being male dominated are also involved in high value work such as the protection of property and business, which as Dionne points out are high status within the patriarchal society.

Yes, I see what you're saying boys. I would just say, the police do sometimes get a lot of aggro (on MN I've noticed it) ... but then I guess it's not the same in kind as this, more based on 'oh, they're all [stereotype]] sexists/racists/mean' rather than the kind of comments there are about nurses on this thread.

They do get aggro and in rl too, sometimes deservedly. But they have a two year probationary period then they're qualified, they dont get an academic qualification at the end of it, but their starting salary is more.

So how does that work. Its arguable if you know enough about the two jobs that the responsibility levels are similar.

The police should be paid as they are; they risk their lives everyday. They cannot run away from trouble.
I don't understand why a degree is seen as so great in nursing; presuming that the same people in the same numbers who wish to nurse now are of similar intelligence to those would be nurses in the past, then two things can only logically happen:
nurses become brighter
or the degree (or what is thought of as being traditionally of degree quality) dumbs down.
Can't be any other way.

Wamster this is a thread in feminism, not aibu, it is a debate about the devaluing of all feminine type careers, not a solely nurse bashing debate.

if you wish to do that go and start a thread in aibu otherwise please try to add something to the debate instead of derailing it for your own ends

No, I won't go away; people have grumbled that police get paid equivalent of nurses in spite of not having same training period. They should be paid same-if not more- a policeman (or woman) cannot run away from trouble; nurses can.

Do you know what nurses do, wam? Ever seen a psychiatric ward?

I think in many cases, regardless of profession, there is an idea out there of women doing X job is only one way vs a man doing the same job. Like with lawyers, there are areas which expect women and areas that are still very much a boy's club.

I've found this just as bad in self-employment. When I say I run a business, people ask if it's about childcare or making food. When I say I run a business with my husband, they tend to be far more open minded about what kind of business it could be. My husband does public relations because I'm fed up with being talked down to people tend to respect him more.

It's not an uncommon story for a female writer struggling to get work and dealing with clients underpaying, wanting tons of rewrites, and only wanting her for certain types of writing. Then she took on a male pseudonym and everything changed. Here's just one example. So on top of typically women's professions being looked down on, many others are divided in male and female work types seemingly so that type of work in those professions are downplayed and looked down upon.

Yes, I know full well what nurses do. I admit that psychiatric nurses deal with violence but for a general nurse to grumble that police get paid equivalent is wrong as they don't usually contend with violence (apart from casualty).

It's not part and parcel of their working lives. When all is said and done, a good nursing manager will tell those nursing staff underneath them that their safety comes first; that it does not matter a jot if a ward gets smashed up as long as they are safe.
The police do NOT have this option, they must deal with violence. That is the difference. And this is why they are paid more.

2 out 5 nurses assaulted: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1985667.stm

The PICU in the hospital where I used to work had the armed response unit out several times a year.

The hospital I work in now has a constant police presence and not just for A + E either.

That's not including the verbal abuse which so many nurses have to tolerate and that management are often so poor at tackling.

Wamster - you don't understand violent patients don't usually take their anger out on inanimate objects, but whoever is nearest, often a nurse.

Just because nurses get assaulted does not mean that it is part of their job remit to take that violence. If they can-yes, I do know that this is not always possible- they can lock themselves away and NOT deal with it (if that is an option). The police have to deal with violence; they cannot just say 'I'll lock myself away'.
They are the ones whose actual job it is to deal with it.

I'm sorry but I do feel it is a bit of a disservice to the police force that nursing is deemed to be on a par with their job as regards violence. Why should it be? A policeman (or woman so that I don't get accused of sexism) may be called out to a house where domestic violence is being reported- they haven't got a frigging clue what is going on in that house. Not a clue. The husband or wife could be wielding a machete for all they know. But the must go there.

I don't deny that violence incidents occur in hopsitals, but they occur in shoe shops, cafes, pubs, and any other number of places were people work- you don't hear people who work in such places decrying the fact that police are paid more than them.

Goth - Doctors prescribe medication and the pharmaceutical pound is massive.

Wamster - it's easy to say that nurses don't have to take that violence, however it is in the nursing remit to know and help ascertain whether that violence is due to the aggressor being a violent person or due to brain injury/diabetically induced.

Well I agree with that, DioneTheDiabolist, I very much agree.
I know it sounds a bit glib to say, 'they don't have to take the violence' when theydo actually deal with violence, but they can -and indeed should- avoid violence if possible. Doesn't matter if place gets smashed up in process.
First rule of dealing with aggression is to avoid it if possible. Don't think that police are told that!
I believe that the day a nurse says, 'I kept myself safe and it is unfortunate that thousands of pounds worth of equipment has been destroyed but there you go. Nobody got hurt', will be a day when nurses really become professionals.

Oh good wamster im glad you agree that we are professionals because thats exactly what does happen. We do not protect equipment ~ just ourselves and vulnerable patients.