I don't know whether I was right to have been offended by this….

[DaisyHayes]

I am a teacher, and part of my role in school is to train and mentor new teachers and student teachers.

Last year, when we got the intake of student teachers, I greeted them and delivered my welcome presentation and induction as usual.

One of the students, when I introduced myself to him, refused to shake my hand when I introduced myself to him. He did not offer any explanation for this. I continued to offer my hand expectantly, and after an awkward pause, he told me that he does not shake hands with women on religious grounds.

I found this unbelievably fucking offensive.

Aside from anything else, the man was a student teacher on his first day in the school. I was (effectively) his manager who had the power to pass or fail him - I am fairly experienced and have been in my current school for eight years, so have some responsibility and superiority. He was at least ten years younger than me.

Firstly, I think that if someone in a professional environment is proffering their hand to you upon being introduced then professionalism and simple manners would take precedence over whatever religious conventions you adhere to.

Secondly, if you are going to be so rude as to not shake my female hand, then you should at the very least explain why you are not doing so, rather than let me stand there with my hand stuck out while you studiously ignore it.

Part of me worries that I am being incredibly bigoted. I am an atheist, but have never felt the need to demonstrate a Richard Dawkinesque crusade against those who have religious belief and think that it is good manners to respect others' faith.

On the other hand, part of me just thinks why on earth should I be understanding and accommodating about someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him and unworthy of simple manners?

I'd be really grateful for your thoughts on this.

Haven't read the whole thread but this happened to me whilst working in the NHS. A colleague who was junior to me refused to shake hands with me when we first met. I don't think I was offended, just momentarily confused. The way I see it, it's his problem, not mine. I know I'm not 'dirty' whether menstruating or not.

I never encountered this with patients, even when performing procedures on parts of the body much more intimate than hands iyswim.

If is to do with menstruation

• it probably isn't, that was mentioned before the OP said she though he was a Muslim. Its probably only a few more extreme Jewish sects who would care about that - not even sure if any still do.

From wikipedia on handshakes

'In some religions, such as Orthodox Judaism and Islam (according to some opinions),[17] which discusses the opinion of various Halachic authorities on this issue, and notes a possible distinction, according to some authorities, between initiating a handshake and returning a handshake (i.e. where the other party extends his/her hand first). The prohibition against physical contact between members of opposite sexes precludes shaking hands. In these religions, men and women however do shake hands amongst people of the same gender. Between opposite genders, a short nod or bow is given. Moroccans also give one kiss on each cheek (to corresponding genders) together with the handshake. Also, in some countries, a variation exists where instead of kisses, after the handshake the handpalm is placed unto the heart.[18]'

We live in a multi-cultural society with peoples of all faiths and beliefs. We promote diversity and tolerance and don't expect everyone to have the customs of the majority. I am surprised at the reaction of so many liberal people. I think these people are good members of society and can be teachers, doctors etc. I don't think they should be barred from working in certain professions due to their religious beliefs. We are an accommodating society and the majority protects the interests of minorities and their customs, as long as they are not against the law. It is not only men who don't shake hands with women, but women who don't shake hands with men. The muslim woman police cadet who refused to shake hands with Sir Ian, allegedly made him "bloody furious", but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really matters, and I am sure he got over it.

I think you are being a tad faux-naive in order to make a point claig

The part of your post which says this is pertinent: "We are an accommodating society and the majority protects the interests of minorities and their customs, as long as they are not against the law. "

If and it is an if, this man's non-handshaking stems from a set of beliefs that mean he will not adhere to the law on gender discrimination, then it is a problem.

"I don't think they should be barred from working in certain professions due to their religious beliefs"

my GP is a muslim, and covers her head, but she shakes hands with my dh to say hello when he goes to her.

so i don't think this is about barring certain religions from certain professions, but about recognising that where religious views are taken to extremes, there could be further reaching implications if the person is in a public facing job, or dealing with impressionable children for instance.

"We live in a multi-cultural society with peoples of all faiths and beliefs. We promote diversity and tolerance and don't expect everyone to have the customs of the majority."

Does gender equality not count as a belief then claig?

'I think you are being a tad faux-naive in order to make a point claig'

But you keep saying that to every point I make

We have discussed whether this is breaking discrimination law. I don't think it can be or it would have been challenged by now, since many devout religious followers have this belief. A woman cadet refused to shake hands with the former commissioner of police, Sir Ian Blair. If the police did nothing about it, I can't see it being illegal. More likely some of the comments and attitudes about this student teacher might be seen as discriminatory.

Joaninha IMO No one should have to be forced to shake anyone's hands - out of politeness or cultural norms or otherwise. But this person is not not shaking anyone's hands - he is only not shaking women's hands.

I agree there is a clash between what is perceived by Islam as paying respect to women and perceived by others outside of Islam as very disrespectful to women. I personally think this attitude of 'respect' to women is long rooted in the view of women as sexual temptors (Christianity is very keen to do this too) and men must be restrained from being tempted, and therefore any contact, however non-sexual, has to be prohibited. To me, it is very clearly misogynistic and puts women in the position of being sexual objects always even when they only want to shake your hand to greet you!

But the thing is he could have avoided all of this really couldn't he? He could have greeted her (as someone sensibly suggested) with hands behind his back and a nod of his head, and he could have made his explanation a lot less antagonistic, or outright discriminatory in tone and words used (even he does view women as inferior!)

I have been spending my time on a lot of Islamic internet boards (both Shia and Sunni) in between reading this thread and sadly it appears that some muslims on those boards view the not shaking of hands as a kind of fuck you Kaffir opportunity, judging by the language used. So all we can guess is the chap in question is somewhere between very socially inept and fuck you kaffir. If he was an airplane controller or an astrophysicist or any career that didn't involve him teaching children (by definition, impressionable and vulnerable) of all beliefs and backgrounds and both genders then it wouldn't be of so much concern where he was on that scale. But he does (or is training to do so) and therefore it is.

I'm thinking when I lived in France there was a lot of kissing involved with everyday life, colleagues, friends, in school with classmates of both sexes. Being a reserved Scot, I found this embarrassing at first. But I still did it, so as not to offend. When I returned home eventually, I had an inappropriate urge to kiss people in contexts which would not be normal in the UK.

So I think it's possible to put cultural preferences on hold when trying to function in another society.

'Does gender equality not count as a belief then claig?'

It does, but the fact that it has not been legally classed as discrimination and the fact that the woman police cadet refused to shake hands with the police commissioner leads me to believe that it is not against discrimination law. There are other ways in which religions discriminate against women, for instance the granting of divorces. I have seen women campaigning for a change in the law, but things have not been changed.

I think religion is such an emotive issue that it does gain exemptions, and allowances are made for religious beliefs, which might not be made elsewhere. My guess is that eventually religious bodies will use the law, via clever lawyers, to enshrine their beliefs even more firmly than now.

Discriminate in legal terms, perhaps not, wilfully offensive on the grounds of gender....box well and truly ticked. Religious beliefs are not always compatible with teaching, this is one.

"My guess is that eventually religious bodies will use the law, via clever lawyers, to enshrine their beliefs even more firmly than now."

If that's the case then stop the planet, cos I wanna get off!

I wanna go to Planet Dawkins...

Planet Dawkins will eventually lead to hell. It won't be much fun there.

Religious bodies already have a raft of exemptions from anti-discrimination law at european level. FYI

ie Churches don't have to let women be clergy if they don't want to, that sort of stuff.

claig I can't think of anyone on this thread who has suggested that not shaking hands is illegal. If there is anyone then they are incorrect. Obviously it is not illegal to refuse to shake someone's hand. The vast majority of people on teh thread are questioning whether this point of practice is an indication that there might be other problems that would be illegal or unprofessional to the point of not being able to teach (teachers being in a position to influence young minds and all the rest of it). Which is a fair question to my mind.

If by 'planet dawkins' joaninha means a properly secular state where there is no discrimination for or against people based on what they do or don't believe, it doesn't sound too hellish to me.

Planet Dawkins does not have a hell, claig.

How, exactly, did the Muslim posters try to explain his actions? Or did they spout nonsense about Islam not being anti women?

claig are you aware of the case with the two gay blokes who were turned away from a christian couple's B&B? Do you think the Christian couple successfully defended their right to act on discriminatory beliefs held under their religion?

I do think there are going to be a lot more cases coming to court where discriminatory religious beliefs clash with anti-discrimination legislation (due to the ways in which MillyR has outlined the Equality Act has widened the scope and application of discrimination law) but I think religion is on the back foot jurisprudentially and this is why: religion, for all its claims, is not immutable. People choose to change their religion, people convert all the time, abandon their faith or find faith. People do not change gender as frequently (and there are laws to protect them doing so in any event), people definitely cannot suddenly choose to become black or white or any race they might fancy. At the heart of discrimination legislation in the UK is protection in against discrimination for who you are. There's a lot of subtleties to that but that in essence is why I think ultimately, in the context of UK society (where there is a lot of freedom to choose your religion) religious arguments to allow them exemption from treating sex, sexual orientation, race, disability in a discriminatory way cannot and will not win through.

Yes I understand that it is not illegal for the woman police cadet not to shake Sir Ian's hand. Since it isn't and it doesn't break any laws, then talk of preventing these people teaching would seem to me to be discriminatory and illiberal. I am sure it would be right up the BNP's street.

I am not of these faiths, but I am tolerant of them, even though I disagree with their beliefs. But I am not a liberal.

I guess the bottom line that we are all pussyfooting around is that some (most) religions have, at their fundamental level, ideas and practices that are incompatible with the law, and if not strictly illegal then go against the qualities required in this country of a teacher. Not shaking hands could indicate that the person holds beliefs that make their choice of teaching as a career inappropriate according to the majority views of society. Ditto some political organisations, and of course individuals.

eg it is not illegal to hold the view that homosexuality is a sin and that people who commit that sin should be shunned and will go to hell
It is certainly not appropriate for a person who holds those views to espouse them to students in a state school classroom, and if they did so they would quite rightly be in big trouble (sacked immediately I would hope, but you never can tell )

I actually think (and hope) Claig that the opposite of what you have said will be true and that exemptions that religions have won will be clawed back over time, through specific decisions in particular cases.

Think you need to bring it up with his university assessors (if he is PGCE?), your Head (may be female), the school governors (which would surely include females) rather than an internet forum.

I'd fail him.

Planet Dawkins sounds good in theory and will correct many of the wrongs of religion. Unfortunately, it will also mean that the gloves are off, and the door will be open and may well lead to euthanasia and even eugenics in a green, depopulated paradise. That is why it may lead directly to hell, and unlike Monopoly, there will be no 'get out of jail' card.

I would hazard a guess that he is a muslim. I've worked with families from all over the world and have met many muslim men who, although are lovely and polite in other ways, would not shake my hand.

However obviously not all muslims behave this way, i think its perhaps to do with how individuals interpret scriptures and to do with the culture of the particular area where they are from. I find the men from poorer or more tribal muslim countries are more old fashioned in their views towards women.