I don't know whether I was right to have been offended by this….

[DaisyHayes]

I am a teacher, and part of my role in school is to train and mentor new teachers and student teachers.

Last year, when we got the intake of student teachers, I greeted them and delivered my welcome presentation and induction as usual.

One of the students, when I introduced myself to him, refused to shake my hand when I introduced myself to him. He did not offer any explanation for this. I continued to offer my hand expectantly, and after an awkward pause, he told me that he does not shake hands with women on religious grounds.

I found this unbelievably fucking offensive.

Aside from anything else, the man was a student teacher on his first day in the school. I was (effectively) his manager who had the power to pass or fail him - I am fairly experienced and have been in my current school for eight years, so have some responsibility and superiority. He was at least ten years younger than me.

Firstly, I think that if someone in a professional environment is proffering their hand to you upon being introduced then professionalism and simple manners would take precedence over whatever religious conventions you adhere to.

Secondly, if you are going to be so rude as to not shake my female hand, then you should at the very least explain why you are not doing so, rather than let me stand there with my hand stuck out while you studiously ignore it.

Part of me worries that I am being incredibly bigoted. I am an atheist, but have never felt the need to demonstrate a Richard Dawkinesque crusade against those who have religious belief and think that it is good manners to respect others' faith.

On the other hand, part of me just thinks why on earth should I be understanding and accommodating about someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him and unworthy of simple manners?

I'd be really grateful for your thoughts on this.

[CinnabarRed]

I have a friend who is a strict orthodox Jew. He is also a very tolerant, intelligent and entertaining individual. He does not for one moment think that women are in any way inferior to men. Quite the opposite - he worships his wife and daughters. He does, however, believe that he should have physical contact with any female outside his family. He takes this belief from the Old Testament but on a personal level also sees it as a mark of profound respect to his wife - he saves something very special to him for her and their daughters alone.

He has, however, found a way to explain this to people in social situations very quickly. I've never yet seen anyone take offense, because he's very good at explaining and is such a personable person when you get talking to him.

[greencolorpack]

Poledra, do you know why this guy doesn't want to shake hands on religious grounds or are you guessing based on nothing but Daily Mail induced paranoia and hearsay?

I guess nobody understands the concept of holiness. Doesn't have to be anything to do with women being second-class or persona non grata etc. Has more to do with not doing something that might lead you into temptation. Perhaps it's okay for men to shake hands with men because they don't fancy each other. The OP should have a nice long illuminating discussion with this teacher and get back to the thread with some actual reasons as opposed to everyone's second hand kneejerk paranoia.

[DaisyHayes]

I know, Crapola.... But this is where I get tied up in knots over being respectful of others' religious beliefs.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

This is really sad, and I also can't imagine why he has been brought up to consider handshaking as taboo, or what religion this forms a part of. I used to work with a monk who wasn't supposed to touch women, but he took this at a common sense level and didn't include handshakes, just hugs etc.

Would you be able to have a word with him about it, if he's still in your school? It's obviously pretty unusual so maybe he's being more of a stickler for rules than is usually required. Perhaps you could advise him of the problems this is likely to cause, and either ways around it (inclining head/slight bow which would at least be polite, explaining straightaway etc) or suggest he speaks to a trusted religious person in order to clarify that work handshakes are really not permitted.

[CrapolaDeVille]

As far as I'm aware it's Islam where a man can't touch a woman as this may lead to temptation, bangs head on desk in disbelief that this is 2011, and therefore this person cannot teach as girls become 'tempting' at around eleven or younger judging by the many little girls wearing hijabs. So this teacher couldn't shake the hands of a girl who won an award or pat the shoulder of one who was crying.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I don't think any mention has been made of this young mans race, so I'm not sure where you got racism from, green.

Its not anti-religious bigotry either, to object to religiously-created sexism, any more than it is to object to religiously-inspired homophobia. There is no evidence in what the OP said that the reasons were anything other than this. What reasons can a religion have for not touching a woman? She's 'unclean'; she's inferior; or in the 'holiness' example...the root of that is at some level that she's a sex object.

[CinnabarRed]

Oh, and the prohibition on touching that my friend observes only applies to sexually mature women (his daughters are old enough to fall into this cateogry). So no issue with teaching at primary school.

The prohibition is also automatically disapplied for anyone who needs medical attention, or any other form of assistance. I've seen my friend pick up a woman who slipped on ice, for example.

[mrsravelstein]

an old family friend became a very strict hasidic jew, and his wife is not allowed to shake hands with men either. but the couple in question basically do not engage in "mainstream" life in any way, and certainly wouldn't train to be teachers or indeed do a job in which they came into contact with anyone outside their own community.

[CrapolaDeVille]

As far as I'm concerned if your religion prevents you from being a full member of society then teaching is not for you, this includes all religious types with views like this. I would not like my children taught by a Muslim or anyone else with such religious views.

[notyummy]

To my knowledge (and I am not a cultural 'specialist') there are certain strict Muslims and Jews who believe that you should not touch a woman who is not your wife (and may also, from memory, avoid making eye contact because of the rulings around 'looking upon another woman.')

I would have thought that following this code of conduct would make it very difficult to integrate in any profession in Western society tbh.

I don't think it is a typical representation of the majority of followers of either religion.

[Guildenstern]

There seems to be some assumption going on that, because he doesn't have physical contact with women, he considers them inferior.

I've not seen anything that suggests he thinks that. Merely that he doesn't touch them.

[Poledra]

Greencolorpack, please do not be personally abusive. I am neither paranoid nor (horror!) a Daily Mail reader. CinnabarRed made a similar point without denigrating anyone else. I have a very good idea of the sorts of reasons that people have for not touching women - however, I struggle to see how they are mutually compatible with professionalism in Western society, and particularly in a profession where the attitudes and opinions of children are being formed.

"Perhaps it's okay for men to shake hands with men because they don't fancy each other." So would it also be acceptable in our society for the man to refuse to shake hands with an openly homosexual man?

[GrimmaTheNome]

I've made some other suggestions...but none of them escape from being sexist. Cinnabar's friend sounds lovely, and his motivation is pure - but isn't the basis for the rule he lives by about women being potential sex objects?

[GrimmaTheNome]

Anyway - from the OPs further description, this young man sounds as though he'd be fine teaching in a boys school but he needs to learn to handle interactions with his female colleagues better, as Cinnibars friend has. If he truly respects women he will want to do this - he may need some tactful suggestions how he might acheive this.

[CinnabarRed]

My friend certainly wouldn't be adverse to hearing tips from women about how to handle his interactions with them better! He'd probably buy you a coffee and a cake in the process.

[wrongdecade]

thats ridiculous what how did the other colleagues respond?

I wouldn't allow him to teach women with that attitude I don't know if thats in your power or not

[DaisyHayes]

He was very awkward about it, which definitely didn't help matters, but I do think that however charmingly you explain your refusual to shake a woman's hand, you are still clearly saying something about that woman (unlean/tempting/whatever).

The message is then 'out there' - if I touch you I might be tempted by you.

I don't think it's appropriate for any man to be referring - however implicitly - to how sexually 'tempting' I am.

It is a professional environment. I struggle to see that his wish not to be 'tempted' trumps my wish not to have my body as an object of sexual desire highlighted.

[WriterofDreams]

Green the op has actually said that the man stated he can't touch her for religious reasons so she's not making that up.

He may be planning to work in a muslim school where such a thing won't be an issue. In that case, he has a right to train in the only system available and obtain his qualifications while at the same time maintaining the integrity of his religious beliefs. You may disagree with those beliefs and feel offended by them but that doesn't mean he should change the way he lives for you. In the long term it may become an issue for him, for example if he goes for an interview in a mainstream school and won't shake the female HT's hand, but that's his problem, and something he'll have to come to terms with in his own way.

I can see where people are coming from when they say if he's going to participate in a job that is so connected to the community then he should fit in with the community. I would have said exactly the same thing a few years ago. However since then I have seen the ways in which western society tends to exclude people from non european countries and I have come to realise how disingenuous such a viewpoint is. I don't blame muslims, indians and pastikani people for tending to stick to their own culture, because I've seen first hand how they are rejected from "mainstream" society. They don't really have an opportunity to integrate so they don't. Expecting them to just give up their beliefs is a bit arrogant IMO. The attitude is "this the way we live, live like that or we will reject you," which is any more enlightened than refusing to shake someone's hand/ He didn't shake your hand for a reason - because his religion forbids it. He didn't show you any real disrespect and in fact was very willing and kind, so I don't see what the problem is really.

As a Christian I feel offended by the fact that Christmas has become a commercial rather than a religious holiday. However, I know not everyone believes the same thing as me. I have been told by more than one person that I'm stupid for seeing Christmas as religious. My response is just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you are automatically right and have the right to look down on religious people. That's just as narrowminded as you claim religious people are.

Sorry for ranting but it's no skin off your nose if he doesn't shake your hand but it is a big deal to him if he does. So be the bigger person and let it go.

[DaisyHayes]

I did refuse to allow him to teach A level wrongdecade, as there are girls in those lessons.

[WriterofDreams]

isn't any more enlightened

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Have I missed where any reference was made to him being Asian, or Muslim?

He could be an American Mormon for all I know.

[wrongdecade]

Oh right how did he take that Daisy?

[greencolorpack]

Poledra sorry. I just get frustrated with religious intolerance. No offence meant. Daisy is it any wonder the guy was awkward about it given the responses here?? I think WriterofDreams made some good points. Be the bigger person.

[megapixels]

"someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him "

What made you think he thought you inferior though? If the roles were reversed and it was a religious woman refusing to shake a man's hand does that mean she regards men as inferior?

He should have quickly offered his explanation without leaving you just standing there though. Very bad manners.

[DaisyHayes]

Well, I didn't tell him tbh wrongdecade. I just said that it was a timetabling thing. I felt uncomfortable telling him it was due to his religious beliefs beecause I wasn't sure how fair I was being.