I don't know whether I was right to have been offended by this….

[DaisyHayes]

I am a teacher, and part of my role in school is to train and mentor new teachers and student teachers.

Last year, when we got the intake of student teachers, I greeted them and delivered my welcome presentation and induction as usual.

One of the students, when I introduced myself to him, refused to shake my hand when I introduced myself to him. He did not offer any explanation for this. I continued to offer my hand expectantly, and after an awkward pause, he told me that he does not shake hands with women on religious grounds.

I found this unbelievably fucking offensive.

Aside from anything else, the man was a student teacher on his first day in the school. I was (effectively) his manager who had the power to pass or fail him - I am fairly experienced and have been in my current school for eight years, so have some responsibility and superiority. He was at least ten years younger than me.

Firstly, I think that if someone in a professional environment is proffering their hand to you upon being introduced then professionalism and simple manners would take precedence over whatever religious conventions you adhere to.

Secondly, if you are going to be so rude as to not shake my female hand, then you should at the very least explain why you are not doing so, rather than let me stand there with my hand stuck out while you studiously ignore it.

Part of me worries that I am being incredibly bigoted. I am an atheist, but have never felt the need to demonstrate a Richard Dawkinesque crusade against those who have religious belief and think that it is good manners to respect others' faith.

On the other hand, part of me just thinks why on earth should I be understanding and accommodating about someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him and unworthy of simple manners?

I'd be really grateful for your thoughts on this.

Of course refusing to shake somebody's hand is not discrimination! Who has said that it is? What is often discrimination is telling somebody that you are treating them differently because of their gender, as the student did.

Unless there is a religion that says that the adherent must shake hands with all men and must not shake hands with all women, and must tell people that this is what they're doing, then the student could easily avoid this situation in future without any conflict with his religious beliefs.

None of this justifies the OP not allowing the student to teach A level pupils.

"None of this justifies the OP not allowing the student to teach A level pupils."

Wow the thread has moved on a lot!! Hadn't read that she was doing that, will go back and re-read it.

My father used to work somewhere and one of the staff smelled of BO, he was told again and again and had no underlying medical condition, that his BO was not cohesive/compatible with working with others. I think holding religious views that spill into your behaviour is not compatible with a good professional relationship with feamle teachers or parents. I, for one, would fight any school that my dcs attended that allowed a teacher to display his views, like this.

Op, I would have been offended and embarrassed by that kind of behaviour.
Makes it a bit tricky from the outset. Even more so as you've observed as having potential as a teacher.

Guess you just have to try to forget about him not shaking hands with you. But, surely this is going to be a massive problem for him as a teacher who has to interact with females. Really awkward!

'Is it legal to discriminate against someone due to their religious beliefs
Yes, in the case of faith schools, they can reject applicants based on their religious belief (or lack thereof).'

Is this still the case?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1420010/Euro-rules-force-Church-bodies-to-employ-atheists.html

Unfortunately yes - we know someone who in the last couple of years had difficulty finding a primary teaching job in Lancashire, as it has a disproportionate number of faith schools, and it was de rigeur for them to ask for a reference from his vicar. I think other authorities (eg Cumbria) have outlawed this sort of behaviour.

To clear up the A level issue - student teachers do not have a right to teach A level, or indeed any other class.

The student teachers are there on placement for a few months, they will undertake another placement at another school after this. Hopefully they should experience a range of ages and abilities over these placements, but they are not guaranteed to be able to teach any particular class.

My responsibilities (in the event of any conflict) lie always with the pupils. For instance, I never allow student teachers to have Year 11 classes as it's just too important a year for them to be practiced on. Certain SEN groups need experienced specialists, not someone who has never taught before. Some classes have been 'messed about' with various teachers off sick/leaving/on maternity, so should be exempt from further disruption. Some classes would end up being taught by student teachers in seven subjects if each student teacher had his or her ideal timetable. Sometimes the timetabling just doesn't work out.

In this instance, I felt that given that I was very uncomfortable about the student teacher's attitude towards women, I took the decision to not timetable him onto any A level groups. I thought it was more important to protect the girls from any possible discrimination than to give the student teacher a 'chance' with them.

He very well may still have ended up not teaching A level had the handshaking issue not arisen. Obviously I told him that it was due to timetabling rather than the 'real' reason, and he had no cause to question this.

I have found all the responses here most thought provoking. I'm going to keep reading back over them and try to get it straightened out in my head.

I know those things daisy, and didn't mean you'd done anything wrong from that point of view. More that presumably you have to make some kind of a report on how he did, and you've sort of missed a chance to be able to to report on sexist attitudes in the classroom, if he showed any. Now it could be that his potential issues in that area never get picked up on and addressed, so he has the chance to present damaging behaviour to future students.. Though I respect your desire to protect the students in your immediate care.

i cant believe the rubbish in this thread and i only read 2 paes.

firstly without even knowin anythin about islam posters are assumin he wont touch women because women are unclean?

that is just made up? from thin air? or the dailyhell?

and the on oneside people are sayin that people like this who cant work in the community shouldnt take a job in the community? but he is in the community ffs, how is he seperatin himself from the community by not shakin a hand? he seems to be a dedicated student who wants to become a ood teacher from ops description.
but people here would want to prevent him from becomin a useful memeber of larer society because he doesnt want physical contact with women.

and ffs were do you et the idea it is because he thinks they are inferior? daily hell aain? maybe it is because that is the way he shows respect to women, and how he would want his sisters and mother treated, and how they would want to be treated.

there are plenty of muslim women who dont shake mens hands, is it because they think men are inferior?
wait let me uess, it is because of the patriachy makin themselves think they are inferior?

Damn - that sounded a bit whiny and precious. Sorry daisy, I didn't mean it to.

agree with much of what you say, nailak.
But what is this 'daily hell' that you mention twice? Are you referring to the Guardian?

Crapola - I didn't say islam doesn't discriminate against women, I'm just taking a very narrow approach re shaking hands which is what the OP was posting about.
Whether I offer my hand or not would depend on the situation. When I first met my helper's muslim husband, I held out my hand to him and he hesitated then took it. I think he knew that for me this was a sign of welcome to my home and my willingness to be on friendly terms with him.
If I was in a formal situation or meeting a complete stranger who was muslim, I would not embarrass them by offering my hand. That having been said I have often met emirati gents who offer a spontaneous handshake to me as a western , christian woman which they might not do to someone from another culture, because they would know that culturally I would be comfortable with the gesture and they respond in kind.
Don't really want to get into the whole religious debate which is brewing, just trying to offer some insight into cultural and social habits.

nailik..... ing....words have ing on the end not in. Can't you write in English and not how you may or may not speak? And ffs learn about your own religion, or are you a blind follower?

In Islam men and women can't shake hands because of sex.....tempting terrible women with their hands.

Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Crapola, a more restrained reading of nailak's post suggests that her g key is broken.

if you look at all of my posts i have a keyboard issue with that letter which is why that letter is missin from my posts lol.

if you want to debate reliion then that is fine, but dont make it up, this verse of obviously referrin to contact as in sexual relations, and is sayin wash yourself after you have sex before you pray.

if you like i will find the tasfir etc to back it up, but i dont see the need, who tauht you the reliion? or do you believe blindly what people tell you aainst it?

and remember to read the context, ie the verses before and after

This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks. (6)

Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah knoweth what is in the breasts (of men). (7)

O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do

That explains the missing 'G'. Is that also why you use 'daily hell' to refer to the Guardian?

What Poledra said.

happy for someone of any faith (within obvious limits- not sure I want the Moonies in) teaching at the school but they must as a basic not be prejudiced against one gender (add to that faith, colour, etc- no disablist bigots, anyone aiming to convert people to their own beliefs, homophobes, etc etc etc etc)

And yes, what faith is this, exactly? Not something I have yet encountered. In ASD / OCD fine, this wasn't so...????

Didn't you do a degree in religious education, Peachy?

I did Claig, specifically Religion and Philosophy.

But if you mean 'didn;t I know that about Islam'- I may ahve, was a while ago, but that wsn't a specialism of mine (Buddhism, and the Transatlantic Slave trade were my two areas) so is quite possible I missed that- we covered seven, it was not hard to miss a lesson and not realise you didn't know about something until you came across it IYSWIM.

Nailak, apologies about your keyboard!!

But if we're going to start pedalling the nonsense that Islam is not dreadful for women then I would refer you to sura 3.14 or the many many other pieces of wisdom.

Here's more on those evil tempstresses:
It is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and His Messenger to put his hand in the hand of a women who is not permissible for him or who is not one of his mahrams. Whoever does that has wronged himself (i.e., sinned).

It was narrated that Ma?qil ibn Yassaar said: the Messenger of Allaah said: ?For one of you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle is better for him than that he should touch a woman who is not permissible for him.?

Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, 486. Shaykh al-Albaani said in Saheeh al-Jaami?, 5045, that this hadeeth is saheeh.

This hadeeth alone is sufficient to deter and to instill the obedience required of us by Allaah, because it implies that touching women may lead to temptation and immorality.

"And ffs learn about your own religion, or are you a blind follower?"

Might have been a good idea to get your facts straight before making a statement like that . Nailak is absolutely right in what she's saying.

What is root of the religious reason for not shaking a woman's hand, while being allowed to shake a man's hand, if it is not either a. to do with sex or b. to do with cleanliness (or lack of it).

And in this country it is certainly true that the law of the land supercedes religious beliefs.

Mega....no she's not. Besides this is not the only part of the Koran that discusses touching women.