I don't know whether I was right to have been offended by this….

[DaisyHayes]

I am a teacher, and part of my role in school is to train and mentor new teachers and student teachers.

Last year, when we got the intake of student teachers, I greeted them and delivered my welcome presentation and induction as usual.

One of the students, when I introduced myself to him, refused to shake my hand when I introduced myself to him. He did not offer any explanation for this. I continued to offer my hand expectantly, and after an awkward pause, he told me that he does not shake hands with women on religious grounds.

I found this unbelievably fucking offensive.

Aside from anything else, the man was a student teacher on his first day in the school. I was (effectively) his manager who had the power to pass or fail him - I am fairly experienced and have been in my current school for eight years, so have some responsibility and superiority. He was at least ten years younger than me.

Firstly, I think that if someone in a professional environment is proffering their hand to you upon being introduced then professionalism and simple manners would take precedence over whatever religious conventions you adhere to.

Secondly, if you are going to be so rude as to not shake my female hand, then you should at the very least explain why you are not doing so, rather than let me stand there with my hand stuck out while you studiously ignore it.

Part of me worries that I am being incredibly bigoted. I am an atheist, but have never felt the need to demonstrate a Richard Dawkinesque crusade against those who have religious belief and think that it is good manners to respect others' faith.

On the other hand, part of me just thinks why on earth should I be understanding and accommodating about someone who clearly demonstrated that he thinks my possessing ovaries makes me utterly inferior to him and unworthy of simple manners?

I'd be really grateful for your thoughts on this.

[nailak]

crapola to not be viewed as a sexual object, and to remove all elements of sex and opportunities for lust from the equation is respect?

[claig]

Hellatwork, you may be right, and I hope you are right. But I brought up the insurance changes with, I think it was even the EU (can't remember anymore), making a law that it was discriminatory for men to be charged more than women for car insurance (even though men pose a greater risk), and the increase in the pensionable age for women (justified as being anti-discriminatory to men) as examples of how eventually the law could be used against women's interests.

The law has to remain impartial and I think that may eventually lead to more rights for religious minorities.

[GrimmaTheNome]

claig.... you normally seem pretty grounded but thats a heck of a leap. Unless you actually have any evidence to support that fantasy you might consider asking for that post be withdrawn.

[GrimmaTheNome]

(referring to 19:19:57 post)

[joaninha]

HellAtWork:
"I actually think (and hope) Claig that the opposite of what you have said will be true and that exemptions that religions have won will be clawed back over time, through specific decisions in particular cases."

Aww, but I've just started building my space ship... :(

[nailak]

anyway i have two examples from medical field.

one niqabi i know she went for an opp and the muslim sureon came to shake her hand and she declined and she was belittled and humiliated by him, another non muslim female sureon saw the event and decided to do the opp instead, let her keep her scarf on, and made sure there were no unneccessary males, includin the oriinal male muslim sureon in attendance.

another female i know needed an tonsilectomy? and when she went to hosiptal the staff automatically assumed she would want to cover her hair in the op, althouh she is less strict then the first sister, and as it was medical she wouldnt have minded probably, and the covered her hair with a plastic cap etc durin the opp.

there is a diversity of beliefs within islam, obviously it is down to the overnment to decide what is acceptable and is what not.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I think that may eventually lead to more rights for religious minorities.
they can have all the rights they want provided they aren't at odds with other people's rights.

[claig]

I haven't got evidence. I said it may lead to that. I don't think that atheists, like you or Dawkins, want that, but I think certain political forces may take advantage of the destruction of religion for those purposes. I think that is what happens under communist regimes, where God has been removed, such as the regimes of Stalin and Pol Pot.

[SardineQueen]

nailak there is a difference between a situation where a doctor should (IMO) respect the beliefs of their patients insofar as it does not interfere with their ability to do their job, or cause undue strain on resources

and

the potential that a teacher, who is in a position of influence over young people, holds sexist views and could allow these views to impact on what / how they teach

Not saying this man would be sexist at work, but the fact that he won't shake hands with a woman indicates that he might be, same as any number of other things religious and otherwise that might indicate that a trainee teacher was sexist racist or any other undesirable quality.

[SardineQueen]

Sexist views have been prevalent in our society for donkeys years and have not gone away. Doctors and teachers throughout time have been sexist and it has coloured what they have done and how they have treated people.

At least now we have said that this is wrong and everyone should be on the alert for it. It has never gone away and it comes from all sorts of people irrespective of religion race etc etc. A middle aged white englishman is capable of just as much sexism as anyone else. The point about the handshaking is that it comes from a place that is fundamentally sexist and so is a flag - the question is if he believes this, strongly enough to go against prevailing cultural norms and make a "stand" about it, what else does he believe and will it be a problem?

[HellAtWork]

SQ Have I told you how lovely your eyes look in that tin-foil hat?
Joaninha Room on board for 2 more (1 giant arse and a small child)?

Nailak Of course there are, there are sub-groups of Islam (Sunni, Shia) sub-sub groups (Shi'ite Ithner Asharyi (sp?), Khoja etc). I have heard a lot of derogatory comments from Shi'ites directed at Sunnis and vice versa (the problems in Kabala and remembrance of Ashura being key) just as Northern Ireland has suffered from intra-Christian violence and hatred. A lot of the need for preventing discrimination against religion is protection from one religion against other religions, not persecution of the religious by the godforsaken! I think that's what people were saying when we were discussing where on the spectrum this man places himself and that does become increasingly important when he is employed by the state (the government as an employer has higher responsibilities with regard to compliance with discrimination legislation, such as reporting etc.) and who he is coming into contact with. I didn't feel there was an anti-Islam knee jerk reaction on this thread, there was definitely an anti-religion sentiment because of religious history with regard to the treatment of women.

If it's of any comfort I dislike all religions equally - does not give me the right however to pick and choose which clients I advise on the basis of whether they are religious or not and neither should it.

[HellAtWork]

Claig I agree that there is a whiff of Animal Farm about Dawkins, which while I agree with him, puts me off him because he comes across as just as dogmatic as any religious person can manage.

However I do believe in a completely secular state.

[HellAtWork]

nailak "crapola to not be viewed as a sexual object, and to remove all elements of sex and opportunities for lust from the equation is respect?"

But what I was trying to understand is how is a handshake an opportunity for lust?

[joaninha]

HellAtWork: don't worry - giant arses are the considered the ideal of female beauty on Planet Dawkins...

[ChantingAsISpeak]

I remember visiting a mosque on a school trip years ago. My female teacher put out her hand and the Imam shook it, even though it was not something he 'should' do, as he felt that it was more important to make her feel welcome than stick rigidly to the religious rules.

[nailak]

hell, in his view their was? so he knows his own mindset better then us?

[HellAtWork]

Nailak Ok so he really thinks shaking a woman's hand will lead to having sex with her? Or is the opportunity to have sex with her? Or is an invitation or offer of sex? I do agree he must know in his own mind but would be very worrying to me that someone has so little control over their lust that a handshake could be interpreted in such a way and that the only way, for them, for a handshake not to lead to sex, is not to shake hands.

[HellAtWork]

Joaninha Let's hope you're still saying that when we're light years en route to Planet Dawkins and you'd like a leetle more room for your own arse being the Spaceship Commander and all! Bwah ha ha

[GrimmaTheNome]

Claig... a secular state doesn't mean 'the destruction of religion'. As the founding fathers of America realised, its the best way to have a diverse set of beliefs in (more or less) peaceful coexistance.

[claig]

No I agree. I am also in favour of a secular state, and a separation of church and state. I believe in freedom and don't want authoritarian policies determining people's lives. That's why I vote Conservative.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Then don't be alarmist!

I guess I have some sympathy with your view but what do you do if one persons's freedom negates that of someone else?

[claig]

That is a problem for lawyers. How do they decide which rights are paramount? It is very difficult. I think it all has to come down to degree of harm etc.

[dadof2ofthem]

havent read all the thread but that would have blown me away , your not attall bigoted. he wouldnt be doing himself any favours even in themost conservative places on earth, kabul, alabama for example, you would be going beyond the call of duty to not let this affect your assessment of him.

[GrimmaTheNome]

That is a problem for lawyers.How do they decide which rights are paramount?

Or rather,for judges and law-makers.

[claig]

Yes, you're right.