Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

You had one bad experience with one inexperienced teacher and you think that means we should give up educating our chidlren properly?

Seriously?

We shouldn't even try to get them thinking about how relationships might/ could/ should work?

History, English and Maths is teaching a subject-not trying to impose your view of the world on another.

Exotic you've already said that your DH is one of the good ones. I've no doubt of that. But tht doesn't make it any less true, that there are loads of men out there who are shit. And they need educating, we cannot simply call on women to resist every single cultural message and psychological and emotional expectations they have developed, to find the right man.

Women can't do this on their own. If we could, we'd have done so, thousands of years ago.

History is all about imposing your view of the world on someone else, actually, but be that as it may...

Discuss it with them. Not tell them what they should think. I thought I was a feminist until I read threads on here which most definitely tell me I am wrong unless I agree with the majority. If I differ my words will be dissected and taken apart bit by bit and I will be wrong.

Of course women can do it on their own-they nurture their DSs and they choose the men as partners.

Your arguments are being analysed and argued with.

It will make them stronger if they stand up and if they don't, you'll change your mind.

No one is telling you you can't argue. But what do you want us to do, just be like Netmums and say "oh well, it would all be boring if we all thought the same, never mind hun, let's agree to disagree shall we?" We're all here to thrash out our own ideas and hone our arguments and learn and of course we're going to dissect each other's posts, that's what debate is.

Debate is respecting other views even if not your own. I am Mrs-this doesn't seem open to personal choice-I am just wrong!

Also, discuss it with them - that is usually what happens in these PHSE or whaterver they are calling it now, lessons.

Why are you assuming that just because one bad teacher once pissed you off, all teachers doing that particular subject will be shit at it? I once had a crap maths teacher, but I don't think all maths teachers are shit. Are you really saying that ethical and social issues shouldn't be argued in schools? They've always been tackled, whether that be under the guise of Literary and Debating societies, Religious Education, Citizenship lessons, whatever. They've been an integral part of education for a long time now, it's not new.

OK why are not both parents breaking the cycle? Yes, that's a great idea. It will work fabulously for the children of parents in a healthy relationship. Not so good for those who aren't though.

Your marriage is great, good I'm pleased for you. But you can't say just because you had a crap teacher we shouldn't allow teachers to talk about relationships. Your personal experience of the world is not representative of everyone's (I actually think, given the stats about relationship breakdown and abuse, that happy relationships are in the minority - albeit a hopefully large one). I am a white female but I can accept that my experience of the world is completely alien to half the population simply because of my gender, let alone my race or socio-economic background or personal experiences. I like to look at research to try to make up for what I'm lacking in personal experience.

What do you mean, respect someone else's view?

That's absurd, of course I don't respect a view I believe to be wrong. I respect your right to hold that view, and to post that view, and I presume you respect my right to argue with it.

I think you're uncomfortable with being argued with because it's not that normal in our culture. Everyone always shies away from getting down to the real nitty gritty of an argument unless they're in academia or somehting, but that's unhealthy and the reason mumsnet is addictive, is because people aren't afraid to keep stripping away at the arguments to examine whether they hold up or not.

honestly I really don't know what you mean by respecting someone's views, I think you mean not challenging someone else's views.

But that isn't what debate is about - it's all about challenging people's ideas and pulling them apart to see what's left that's useful and what can be ditched.

But sorry to harangue you Exotic, I know it's tough to have your arguments torn to bits if you're not used to that and especially if your arguments are normally seen as mainstream and common sense. I hope you're not feeling victimised, I'm not going to stop arguing with you but it's in a spirit of discovery rather than attacking.

"I don't know how you get women to choose the right man-"

Why do women need to choose a man at all? Why not just have a lover who pops by now and again? You're more likely to be murdered by your husband/spouse than a random man on the street. I think that bears repeating.

Just look at the patriarchal brainwashing, it's literally everywhere. Kate and Wills' wedding was a good example. It's interesting that in countries where women now actually do have alternative careers outside of marriage and protitution the culture insists that pair-bonding and the love match between men and women not only exists but is the route to happiness. I think this happens because women can't be coerced economically into pairing with men anymore so they've had to pull out all the stops.

In Asia, where I live, they don't bother dressing marriage up as anything but what it is: a nest to raise children coupled with economic and social interdependance.

Women get to choose their husbands, yes, but as any woman on the street and she will tell you that marriage is shit, basically. Plenty of women don't get married here, but most of them lose out on the chance of having kids, which is fine if that's what they want, but I think it's a shame that that was the price they had to pay.

but ask any woman on the street

I don't think Exotics arguments have been torn to pieces.

It's her experiences and opinion so to me it's valid.

And what about 'ask any women on the street and she'll tell you marriage is shit' Is that a valid argument?

I really think some of you live in a parallel universe! Men are just people.
I don't want a casual lover.My DH is lover, best friend and someone that I intend to go into old age with. Most people I know are like that. I have 3 DSs who pick girls that they like and are friends with, before anything else. They have girls who are just friends. DS1 is still friends with his ex girlfriends. It really isn't this this them/us warefare that people seem to see.
I can't imagine who anyone would want a DC if you can't find the right man-I would have missed out if I hadn't found one. It isn't a woman's right to have a DC. It is a DCs right to have 2 loving parents. It is very selfish to have a DC 'because I want one'. I have been in that position and didn't do it. A DC is a precious gift-not a right where someone decides to wipe out a whole half of their makeup so that they will never meet a set of grandparents, cousins etc.
Of course it should all be discussed in PSHE but discussed, not told that all men are shits and how to avoid them.
What we need to do is raise the self esteem of all women so that they don't think they have to have a man, they don't have to have DCs and they don't have to put up with anything they don't like.
Women have free choice. The woman is bringing up a DC from birth-they should be the one changing the cycle-even if they have the 'wrong' partner. A woman isn't forced into having a particular partner. They are not forced to stay with him.
I don't believe that any DC follows 'do as I say' they always follow 'do as I do'. My mother was my role model. Women need to make sure that they are living life the way they want-it is useless to tell the DC to do something they are not doing themselves.
I don't mind debates-it is why I started in the first place. I do however think that everyone is different, sometimes you have to agree to differ. I dislike intensely being told what I should think and it makes me do the opposite. If you want people to follow you need to lead by example-not 'educate' unless it is a two way thing. Life is never black and white, it is shades of grey.

Totally agree with everything exotic is said. I dont think most women would say their marriage is shit at all, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

'I don't want a casual lover.My DH is lover, best friend and someone that I intend to go into old age with. Most people I know are like that. '

Totally agree with this to including people married 20/30/40/50+ years I know.

Agree again with everything you have wrote in that post exotic.

Good-I begin to think that I live in a plastic bubble with friends and family! My DSs live in student lodgings with both sexes-they are just people-'the good the bad and the ugly'. They have friends who are girls. Life isn't all about sex and exploitation. There are many women out there who I wouldn't want them hitched up with, men are not the only 'baddies'.I don't warn them about them and how to avoid them-I assume that they have been brought up with self worth, the ability to go against the crowd and if the worst comes to the worst they will learn by their own mistakes. The same if I had DDs. I once had a boyfriend that my mother didn't like, I got deeply resentful of her 'stopping me making a mistake'-she admitted wanting to 'wrap me in cotton wool'-to which I said 'if I got hurt, I got hurt-I didn't want the cotton wool'. As it turned out she was right but I found it out myself, before it got very far and that was far more valuable than being 'told what to do'.
People can work these things out-it takes some longer than others-but other people sorting it doesn't work IMO (or not with me) . DS had a girlfriend I didn't think suited him-I kept quiet and friendly and it fizzled out. He worked it out for himself.

I'm confused. What makes 2 people having a child because they want to have one any less selfish than one person doing it?

Surely it's always a self-centred decision to have child, no less so just because there are 2 of you making it?

"What we need to do is raise the self esteem of all women so that they don't think they have to have a man, they don't have to have DCs and they don't have to put up with anything they don't like"

yes!

But it would be a good idea to attack the problem from the other side too - to ensure that women don't have to deal with men who do things 'they don't like'.

I don't think that marriage is always shit either. I think it's an unnatural institution that doesn't actually suit human beings that well - and does so less as the years go by. But by and large it's OK for a lot of people. But it's hard work, it can go horribly wrong and it shouldn't be the default setting for all adult relationships.

'It's interesting that in countries where women now actually do have alternative careers outside of marriage and prostitution the culture insists that pair-bonding and the love match between men and women not only exists but is the route to happiness.'

Interesting point sakura - I had assumed that the (insanely tedious) cultural obsession with pair-bonding/marriage was partly a result of the decline of religion, meaning that we needed something else to fetishise. But you have made me think again!

The statistics show pretty clearly that, as a group, men benefit much more from marriage than women do. And women initiate two-thirds of divorces. So why is it that women usually seem keener to get into marriage than men do?

It is a fact of life that many, many children will not learn the skills to choose the right partner from their home-life and childhood. I am not for one minute suggesting that all marriages are bad, but a lot are and it is simply ridiculous to deny that. Look at the stats, check out the threads on MN. In a sexist marriage children will grow up far more likely to repeat the patterns they have learned, not break them. It's self-perpetuating.

Placing responsibility on the woman or the child to break that pattern is victim-blaming IMO. I see a big difference between 'taking responsibility' and 'empowering/educating'. The former implies blame, whereas the latter suggests opportunities IYSWIM.

Exotic you said yourself that life has shades of grey. Why does education have to be about telling people what to do? I see education as a bit like parenting - you equip people with the tools they need to be able to do things for themselves. It's not about learning by rote. We all have to learn skills. We go to school to learn about the world and so we can learn the skills necessary to get a job. The job is not given to us but we are given the skills to go out and get it ourselves. I don't see why this is any different.