Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

[Ormirian]

Thread obliquely about a thread. Sorry.

But as I read more I got and then and finally downright .

I have always thought that having children was a joint project. Both parents have as much invested in the child, both care equally about the outcome. I always beleived that was a given. With good decent men anyway.

When children are small they come first. Always. Simple logistics demand it for a start. The parents gets what is left over in terms of energy, time and affection. In a solid relationship with similar attitudes that is absolutely fine because it's temporary and for a worthwhile goal.

I have heard about fathers being jealous when a new baby arrives. I can understand that I guess - mother's do tend to get wrapped up in newborns, exhausted and emotionally drained. However I always assumed that jealousy of a baby (who also happens to be their child) is something that would be regarded with embarrassment and shame. Something a man would fight against and certainly not mention seriously to his partner. If he was jealous of his own child he'd do his damndest to sort it out himself and not parade his ego in front of his partner and demand she massage it for him!

Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?

[sakura]

I think it marriage reinforces patriarchy because women are divided from each other and their energies/time/emotion goes into supporting men instead of each other. You only have to look at the happiness statistics!

1. Married men (happiest)
   
2. Single women (second happiest)
   
3. Married women (not quite so happy)
   
4. Single men (very fragile, depressed and much more likely to be in jail than married men)
   

So without a doubt, marriage supports men... and it only supports women insofar as patriarchy has made single women's life difficult, especially if they're mothers.. then they get doubly punished

[sakura]

"Is this part of the reason for the current divorce rate now that you don't have to put up with sort of crap? "

Hi TheATomic... yes, that's the reason for the divorce rate. That and DV amongs other reasons. 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

[exoticfruits]

but if you'd asked them what they thought about men and the way they had all the power I think they'd have told you not to be so ridiculous and get back to your drawing/embroidery/cooking etc.

Not my granny. Even when she was a young, single shop assistant she made sure she was treated with respect-the manager called her 'hey you', once-and after she put him right it was always Miss.......
My cousin has asked why I thought that our grandmother was more worried about the education of her daughters than his father (the only son) -and that was easy-she thought it was much easier for him so she put her efforts into the girls.
I am the only girl in the family, my education was equal to my brothers and I didn't do anything in the way of washing up etc that they didn't do. Expectations were the same.
I have a huge problem with all this talk of heirarchy-it isn't something that I have experienced in family life. I don't see why women put up with it-surely you see the signs before you marry them or have DCs and run for the hills?! Or does it just happen if this is what you experienced and what you expected?
I have never experienced it, didn't expect it and haven't got it. I get upset by all this talk of patriarchy because my DSs haven't experienced it in the family and are hardly likely to act that way and yet they seem to lumbered with the label because they are male and are being held responsible for thousands of years of history.

[TheAtomicBum]

I think it's a little harsh to abandon all marriages.

But I do have a simple solution. When you find men like this, do not date them. Do not marry them. Ignore them. Sooner or later they will stop being this way.

But, of course, this is just if they are total arseholes. Everyone has flaws, both sides of the couple. And until everyone accepts the role of both husband and wife being equal and have an equal responsibility in raising their children (and obviously that the needs of the children outway the wants of the parent), divorce rates will continue the way they are.

[southofthethames]

I see where OP is coming from - the New Man myth is very rare. Most dads I know don't do 50-50 of the parenting, and seem to feel that having children means wife/partner at home a lot more, lots of free meals and housework done for him, more gratitude because wife/GF thinks she isn't contributing as much to the household income, and the kids are always ready with smiles when he can pull away from the tv or sports page to spend time with them......bit of a generalisation but many fellow mums I know feel the interesting, independent and helpful spouse or partner they had turns into an extra child once baby comes round..... (and of course, if their wife/partner is in work full time, then is effectively doing both work and SAHM roles when she picks up the kids from nursery/childminder, whereas he puts his feet up when he gets home.)

[southofthethames]

(PS Sorry typo - "the New Man is very rare". Meant to say the New Man is likely a myth!)

[southofthethames]

Jealousy is not so strange though - people can be jealous of their own siblings of course, even though they love them a lot at other times.

[sunshineandbooks]

I am the only girl in the family, my education was equal to my brothers and I didn't do anything in the way of washing up etc that they didn't do. Expectations were the same.
I have a huge problem with all this talk of heirarchy-it isn't something that I have experienced in family life. I don't see why women put up with it-surely you see the signs before you marry them or have DCs and run for the hills?! Or does it just happen if this is what you experienced and what you expected

This is the point exotic. Your personal experience is very rare IMO. Most women are not brought up overtly with expectations that they should also play second fiddle to men, it's never actually stated outright like that (well in some cases maybe). It's the covert messages that sink in and do the damage. The fact that all baby/cleaning product type adverts are always aimed at women and feature women. The fact that men are paid more than women for doing the same job. I can go on and list many more if you want me to? It all sends out the message that the man is the primary earner and the women takes care of house and home even if she has a job (career even) of her own. And the thing is for a lot of women, especially if they highly functional, well-organised and capable, is that they don't notice how unbalanced the relationship is until they reach a point where they can no longer manage it all.

Atomic - this sort of comment really irks me: But I do have a simple solution. When you find men like this, do not date them. Do not marry them. Ignore them. Sooner or later they will stop being this way.

If women were able to spot these men, they obviously would stop dating them. It's the fact that our patriarchal society has done such a bloody good job on disguising this behaviour as normal to a lot of women that is the problem. Do you think I feel like a fool now I have discovered feminism and look back on what I put up with in the past? You bet your life I do. But I am still the same person with the same background, experiences and education as I was when I didn't see this stuff for what it was. I have simply had my eyes opened, and that's what feminism is all about IMO. Opening women's eyes - consciousness raising if you want to call it that - is the very first step if we are going to get a serious chance at really changing this society for the better. Without enough women (and hopefully men too) on board, nothing will change.

[Ormirian]

"Opening women's eyes - consciousness raising if you want to call it that - is the very first step if we are going to get a serious chance at really changing this society for the better" Too fucking right!

Until more, indeed most, women start to realise how skewed society is towards the needs and expectations of men, it is impossible to seriously make changes. Hence the irritation so many feminists feel when it comes to 'Oh no, I like shaving my pubes and wearing stockings - it's so empowering, and it's got nothing to do with men' Everything most of us do is influenced by how we are perceived by men.

[Ormirian]

Most of us also fall for the men we fall for partly because they are familiar - same patterns of behaviour, same attitudes.

[HerBeX]

"I hadn't realised that I need to add feminist to my list of threads to keep off. Parenthood isn't a competition-it is a joint, equal enterprise."

Don't you recognise that in too many cases, parenthood is anything but a joint, equal enterprise? Your sentence IMO should read "it should be a joint equal enterprise." It's Pollyanna-ish to pretend that it isn't and it seems slightly unreasonable ot me to get so irked by the fact that one section of mumsnet points that out, that you determine to keep away from it.

[Ormirian]

exotic - for the most part I haven't experienced the worst effects of the patriarchy either. I was born into a middle class family who took education seriously and expected me to do as well as my brother. And I had those expectations when I left home. But life isn't always as you expect it and I have seen the way society treats women - you can't only care about your own life can you? We live in a town where there are big social problems - and where that is the case it is more often than not the woman that bear the brunt.

[exoticfruits]

I don't know how you get women to choose the right man-many like the excitement of the bad or the mad etc-give them a nice considerate man and they label him boring. Many are just messed up by their families (mother too) and are looking for affection-often the 'wrong' type of man homes in on this. I don't think it is that simple.

[HerBeX]

"I don't know how you get women to choose the right man"

More to the point, how d you get men to be the right man?

Lots of women are addicted to the adrenalin rush of abusers because that's what they've grown up with and because society excuses abuse of women by men. That bit at least, is fairly simple.

[sunshineandbooks]

Exactly HerBex Why is it the woman's responsibility to make sure she avoids an abuser instead of the abuser's responsibility to stop being abusive? I'm all for personal responsibility but it seems to apply to women a lot more than men.

Exotic If I was an old woman living in an area targetted by the door-to-door con artists, people might give advice to me about not letting them in without ID etc but if the worst happened, all their censure would be directed at the con artists not at me.

Also, I'm not convinced by the women find nice men boring and must have had bad childhoods arguments. I didn't. My previous partner was a nice man and my childhood was happy. I just didn't know how to spot an abuser. They are good at what they do and society normalises a lot of their behaviour until it becomes quite extreme. My parents assumed that setting a good example would be enough. It's not a mistake I will be making with my own DC. I intend to teach them about different types of relationships and how manipulation works. I'd like to see it taught as part of PSHE in schools, where it will hopefully show young men that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable as well as teaching young women how to spot it and avoid it.

[HerBeX]

Yes it really ought to be taught in schools.

Teenagers should be taught how to spot red flags.

I was listening to commercial radio today (the horror...) and so many songs on the playlist are basically sang from the POV of entitled men with Narcissistic Personality Disorders. Lunacy is normalised it's presented as romantic and sweet.

[exoticfruits]

I still think they wouldn't listen. Surely the mother should be a huge influence-why don't they break the cycle with their DSs? My brothers treat their wives as equal partners-I am confident my DSs would-it is all they have known.
I was brought up not to have to follow blindly. I have never been hit by anyone in my entire life-a man would hit me once-there would be no excuses or second chances-I would be gone.

[HerBeX]

Um, the fathers are a pretty big influence too.

[HerBeX]

Why aren't the fathers working on breaking the cycle?

[sunshineandbooks]

Yes, like in romantic films where the man goes all out to get the woman's attention. In the film it seems ok because she likes him and she's supposed to be with him by the end of the film. In RL though it would be seriously creepy and verging on obsessive stalking behaviour. Twilight - classic example.

In songs, where many of the post popular forms of music routinely call women bitches and whores.

I mentioned adverts earlier. All the cleaning ones/baby ones/incontinence/diarrhoea ones all feature women, while those featuring men are all dark brooding and hey, aren't we great (summed up )

So we have a popular culture where it's ok for men to stalk women, call them a bitch or whore, expect that she will do all the cleaning and baby care. And then we wonder why women in RL don't leave when her partner starts controlling her, emotionally abusing her and not pulling his weight around the house or routinely goes out with his mates on the weekend leaving her with the kids.

[sunshineandbooks]

If a woman has a sexist partner, how can she break the cycle with her DS unless she leaves her partner?

If every woman in this country left her partner for being sexist I would bet my mortgage on the fact that the divorce rate would rocket!

[exoticfruits]

These things backfire in schools HerBex-DCs don't always receive the lesson they are meant to-they have a very different interpretation.
In my case I resist any attempt to 'educate me'-I don't like it. I prefer to choose my own role models and work it out for myself. I remember a very young PHSE teacher when I was a teenager-she was from London on a quest to 'liberate' us in the 'backwoods' and we deeply resented her telling us what we should think. It was a girl's grammar school and most people went on to be very successful-I remember that one girl eventually had a real go at her and told her what she thought-everyone was pleased. She wasn't treating us as equals-she was telling and not listening.

[sunshineandbooks]

Some kids probably won't listen, or the message will be drowned out by contradictory messages they receive at home or from wider society. But if it helps just one young man stop being sexist or one young woman from taking up with an abuser, is it not worth it?

[HerBeX]

Well we might as well give up teaching history, english and maths as well then.

[exoticfruits]

OK why are not both parents breaking the cycle? I mentioned mothers since people seem to know lots of these abusive controlling men-who I assume wouldn't want to.
I think I live in a different world-my friends and family live in equal relationships-if they didn't they divorced years ago. I went out last night and came back to find that DH had washed all the tiled floors-this isn't odd-he does it more often than I do.