I ordered something online yesterday

[QueenOfFeckingEverything]

And the only options for 'title' on the webform were 'Mr' or 'Ms'.

It made me

I just don't like Ms, it has very negative connotations for me personally.

there are a couple of things wrong with Ms, for me. I don't think it's a proper word, and I don't like the way it sounds (Mzzzzzz). Plus, as I've said earlier, I feel it denies my attachment to my dh and my dses (though I accept not everyone needs to use Mrs to feel this attachment - it is purely the way I feel).
Exactly.

And actually I like the fact that 'Mrs' says something about me. Being a mother and wife is my 'job' at the moment. I don't work outside the home and so those roles are a huge part of what defines me currently.

I agree that the delivery company don't need to know that, but I wouldn't like to see Mrs done away with as a title altogether.

Disliking "Ms" based on how it sounds is all well and good, but don't travel. I get called "Mzzz Blackcurrants" when teaching, because that's how some of my students (midwestern & southern USA) pronounce "Miss."

And, of course, I'm married. But it's none of their business whether I am or not. So I tell them to call me Blackcurrants.

Just skimmed, you don;t need an additional form of address for men.

They can be master.

So miss / master, mrs / mr.

When is this change going to take effect then? (Never)

My MIL went bananas if anyone tried to call her ms. Absolutely did her nut. Can't understand it myself. She thought it was insulting

My mum also prefers to be mrs than dr. Again, baffling to me.

When I add DS to my air ticket (he's under 2 so on my knee) he shows up as MASTER Blackcurrants'DS - so Master still = 'male who has not reached age of majority' in some uses.

I thought it was pretty cool. If it was Mstr until men were married and Mr afterwards, that would start indicating that men's marital status should be available for all to know. So we can judge them based on whether or not they've managed to get and keep a spouse..

That's what really gets me about Mrs. People think differently based on whether or not you're married, and one way to get rid of that bias is to get rid of the information. BUT, as posters on this thread have demonstrated, "Ms" is not presently the neutral title it should be (like Mr) because when women use it rather than Miss or Mrs it is assumed they have something to hide.

Ugh.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl wrote - "there are a couple of things wrong with Ms, for me. I don't think it's a proper word, and I don't like the way it sounds (Mzzzzzz)."

Ms could be an abbreviation of "Mistress".
Why does it matter if Ms is not an abbreviation of a "proper" word?

Should feminists only campaign for words that sound "nice" to some people?

On the topic of "nice" sounding titles, women are entitled "Fröken" in Swedish. (pronounced much like frukken).

Fröken means miss. But nobody uses titles in Sweden any more anyway.

SardineQueen wrote - "My MIL went bananas if anyone tried to call her ms. Absolutely did her nut. Can't understand it myself. She thought it was insulting"

I don't understand the perceived insult either.

At least she wasn't being called "Miss", which used to mean prostitute.

Oh, hang on, girls and young women are called "Miss" all the time.

In 18th century novels the lady's maids are usually called Mrs even if they are unmarried. I have no idea if this was a sign of respect (senior servants rather than kitchen maids etc), the opposite (they are servants), or just indication that they were adult women.

HeavyHeidi wrote - "nobody uses titles in Sweden any more anyway."

Are there many women in Sweden who wish that the Swedish equivalent of Mrs was still used?

vesuvia, personally I haven't met any. Your great-aunt might address a christmas card to you with a title, but otherwise they are simply not used.

Vesuvia - someone asked why people disliked the word Ms - I was answering the question honestly - I am sorry that one of my reasons is not sufficiently important for you.

So if "being a wife and mother is my job" is a reason to want to use Mrs, is that saying that being a SAHM without being married is somehow less legitimate?

If you were called Ms and you were a SAHM people might think you were one of those single mothers, or that you were living in sin . Is that it?

StayingDavidTennantsGirl wrote - "I am sorry that one of my reasons is not sufficiently important for you."

I asked questions hoping you would clarify something. Sorry if I gave the impression that your reasons were not important to me. That was not my intention.

I'm not sure it's fair to infer that, Trillian. I suspect that, like me, Alibaba is expressing her personal view - and just as vesuvia did with my statement, you are taking her personal opinion, referring to her situation, and rolling it out to cover every SAHM - and I very much doubt that was her intention.

It does feel as if any reason expressed for liking the term Mrs or disliking the term Ms is going to be misinterpreted as the poster saying something negative, if at all possible. I didn't say that feminists should only campaign for titles that sound nice to some people - I said that I didn't like the sound of the word Ms. Equally, Alibaba explained that, for her, Mrs acknowledges her role as a SAH wife and mother - I see nothing whatsoever in her post about being an unmarried SAHM being in any way less legitimate than being a married SAHM - but misinterpreting it to say that makes it easy to make her opinion look bad - which is unworthy of a decent debate, imo.

Fwiw - I can understand what she is saying. Having given up work to be a SAHM I do feel that what I do is not perceived as having any great status attached. I'm not advancing my career or using my education and training, i'm not bringing in any income to the household, and my working role doesn't have anywhere near the respect and status that dh's does.

I know that some people in society do believe this about SAHMs - I certainly don't, but it does nag away at me sometimes - that I am somehow a lesser person because I stay at home with the children. Note - I am NOT saying that I believe this about any other SAHM - I am far more negative about myself than I would ever dream about being about another person. Alibaba feels that, for her, the title Mrs gives her role some validation - if it helps her, is that a bad thing?

Thank you vesuvia. My post, just above this one, was cross-posted with your last one, and I hadn't seen what you said - so I would like to retract, and apologise for, mentioning your question about the sound of Ms.

I was asking it as a question, because that is how it sounded to me. Not deliberately misinterpreting and saying that that must be what Alibaba thought, but saying "it sounds as if you are saying this, please explain".

(hadn't actually paid much attention to who said it TBH, it was just a comment that had stuck in my head)

To me, saying that Mrs acknowledges/legitimises being a SAHM suggests that being a SAHM needs acknowledging/legitimising.

If you were a chef or a bus driver or an artist your title wouldn't say anything about your job, so why does the job of being a SAHM need acknowledging through your title?

Maybe because is isn't acknowledged any other way, Trills? If you are a chef, an artist or a bus driver, you get acknowledgement of your job/status when you get paid or people buy your work - but being a SAHM doesn't have anything like that to validate it.

I think being a stay at home parent deserves some acknowledgment, and I know Mrs doesn't cover all the options, just one. I'm not sure how you would go about giving some acknowledgement to all SAHPs.

In this society as it is currently constituted, being Mrs. affords me protection in a way.
It makes me feel secure in that the world knows that DH is responsible for me and my children, and that he brings in the income if I do not.
It would certainly be better if his name and title reflected this relationship.

I would prefer however to live in a society where this was not necessary.

Trillian - no that wasn't what I meant at all. I'm not saying that being a SAHM needs legitimising, not at all. Acknowledgment is a different issue, because being a SAHM does need acknowledgment I think - but that is a separate discussion.

What I'm getting at, is that I dislike the anonymity of 'Ms' - and also 'Mr'. Because it confers no information about a person other than their gender. Mrs, or a male equivalent, or Dr, Rev or whatever tells you something about a person - and it is nice to get that glimpse I think.

That is just my personal opinion, because I understand why others like the anonymity of Ms.

Wasting - yes precisely.

That's interesting, I hadn;t considered that you would think that anonymity or only giving necessary/relevant information would be a bad thing.

I don't get it at all (why do I want to tell John Lewis anything about myself other than "I want this saucepan please bring it to me"?), but it's interesting.

doesn't the wedding ring acknowledge it?

I suppose it proves we are all different, Trills. If I am honest, I must admit that I crave recognition/status/the odd plaudit, and maybe if I was more secure in myself, my title wouldn't matter as much.

PenguinArmy - yes, the wedding ring acknowledges the marriage, but that doesn't show up on forms.

nor do most people's professions, unless there is a box in which case you could put SAHM.