I ordered something online yesterday

[QueenOfFeckingEverything]

And the only options for 'title' on the webform were 'Mr' or 'Ms'.

It made me

As long as Ms is an option on forms (which I think it should be) you don't have to reveal your marital status to strangers. You can refuse to answer the question, or not tick the box.

And it does take something away if my choice of title (not an unusual one) is not on the form. I think it takes away something from you if Ms is not an option.

Elephants - I'm not the one campaigning for something, or celebrating when someone's legitimate title is missed off a form, so I am not asking you to sacrifice anything.

I do think it's a bit rubbish that if women select 'Ms' they're believed to be hiding something or making a point, men just write one thing and that's it.

SDTG - surely you can see that the whole business of calling women 'Miss' or 'Mrs' is an archaic practice of the patriarchy, which states that it is important to define a woman in relation to her marital status. Heaven forfend that you treated a Miss as a Mrs. That is why it is important to know.

You may personally disagree that it has this symbolism now, but I think that it is hard to deny that this is the historical context, and that the modern meaning is still tainted by convention.

Removing the differentiation between Miss and Mrs would be a public and visible step to say that it is no more important for a woman to be identified by her marital status than it is for a man. One step towards equality.

You say that it is not a sacrifice you are willing to make. Have you really asked yourself why is it so important to you to be identified as married?

Yes, I have asked myself why it is so important to me to identify myself as married, and it is because it is a significant part of who I am. Being Mrs SDTG shows my commitment to my dh, to our marriage and to our family. I feel that this is important - but I fully accept that others don't want the same symbolism but are equally committed to their dh/dp, family and marriage/partnership.

Being Mrs means that someone loves me. It's an affirmation of my importance to dh - and to be honest, I have never felt important to anyone. I was bullied at school and always felt like a reject, someone outside the circle, not accepted. Being Mrs means I am part of my family circle, accepted, in the loop.

Here, on this thread, I feel rejected for having a different opinion, not good enough to have my choice considered alongside yours. Looked down upon for accepting something that is an archaic practice of the patriarchy (which, by the way, was not news to me).

That is sad . I hope that one day you can feel important to yourself, just for being you, and not feel the need to prove your worth to the world by showing that there is at least one person in the world who wants to be connected to you.

I'm with SDTG. I am a recent Mrs. and I like being Mrs. I'm not Mrs. DH, I'm Mrs. DH and DS and me as a family. I've never liked Ms as a title for myself and would rather have no title at all than a Ms. It seems to me like a pointless intermediate step. If marriage shouldn't define us then neither should gender so we should demand an option for no title at all rather than a marital status neutral title that a good few women will be unhappy to adopt.

I do rather like the idea of a married title for men though, would join the campaign for that :)

IME most forms have a Ms option anyway, and I think that is adequate in giving a choice to refrain from stating marital status.

SDGT, what do you feel about your husband not declaring the same level of symbolism and commitment in the title he uses in public. I don't mean this this in a bad way, it is just your last post is poignant.

"If marriage shouldn't define us then neither should gender so we should demand an option for no title at all rather than a marital status neutral title that a good few women will be unhappy to adopt."

TBH I agree allosaurus, but I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with being known by their first names in various contexts, and calling someone by their full name (e.g. Sarah Smith) in conversation would sound awkward. So until things change on that front, Ms is the title for me.

Other people on here have suggested Pn (Person) or something like Cmd (Comrade) :o

Oh yes, Comrade! But how would one politely address a political foe?

Fkr?

Agreed Cmd.

Snowmama - he declares his commitment to me by wearing a wedding ring (something that wasn't commonplace when we got married) and by his ongoing support as I struggle to deal with depression. If there was a married man's title, he would have taken it (I've asked him the specific question), but I don't feel that everything I do has to be exactly and equally balanced by a similar action from him.

How about Cn for Citizen?

SDTG - I can see where you are coming from, but to be honest I think it is going to be impossible to include everyone's choices on such things as official forms. Perhaps the only solution is to write Title: with a space for people to write whatever they want, although this does perhaps leave it open for silly responses, like Empress or Satrap.

Wow that's a great name Mrs Lastname.....I now feel compelled to google to see if anyone has it!!

I have a friend who changed his name to his wife's last name after they got married. He said it was because he had no way in his name to show that he was married to her, and he wanted to be able to show it off.
It was rather sweet.
His family was SO unimpressed.

There are other ways around it - I know a man who changed his last name upon marriage to a hybrid of his last name and her last name. Eg Brown/Walter became Browlter. Kind of Brangelina before there was a Brangelina.

I do get frustrated with the "why do you want to take away my choice?" stuff. Because your choice is the choice of people that oppress women, and it would be nice not to have it out there, oppressing women in the future. Don't believe me? I was pressured like crazy to take DH's last name when I got married (and not by him, I might add) apparently if I didn't change my name to MrsDH, I didn't really love him or really want to marry him. FFS! If people didn't spout that "well I chose to change my last name because I am reeeally glad to be married" stuff then it wouldn't be a stick to beat us with. But it is.

[may be slightly over-cross, v. sick and v. tired at the moment, apologies for not being cuddly about it.]

Blackcurrants - I agree that no-one should be pressurised in the way that you were - it sounds (and clearly was) horrible and unacceptable. But I honestly don't think that most women who want to use the titles Miss or Mrs would think it was OK.

I'm sorry you feel my choice is used as a stick to beat you with - but I think that abolishing Mrs/Miss isn't the only way to prevent this in the future. In fact, it could cause a backlash - people could feel that removing their choice is coercive, and might be up in arms, whereas adding Ms as another option slides it quietly in, and I suspect it would probably take over from Miss/Mrs as time went by.

I don't think we're actually talking about banning anything here, more looking to how a cultural shift could happen.

You're right - banning was the wrong word, TimeWasting - but removing it from all forms would feel pretty drastic to me. I agree it has to be a cultural shift, but I think cultural shifts happen gradually and because an increasing number of people come to believe in the movement, whereas taking away the choices of a significant number of people might cause real resistance to change, rather than fostering it, and be counterproductive.

I am not sure I agree with that SDTG. Look at the smoking ban. That was a fairly large dramatic shift. But a few years down the line, even my friends who are smokers think it is so much better. I think people generally change and get used to new ways quite quickly if they are compelled to. It would make such a big public statement about the status of women that I think it would be worth a bit of grumbling.

But it wouldn't be removed from all forms in a way that would upset lots of people. It would only happen gradually.

Good point Thistledew.

These changes work when enough people feel it is reasonable.

It's easy if you catagorise it as 'just a bit of grumbling' - then it doesn't seem that important, or worth worrying about - but it is important to me, and to others, so it would be a real loss, not something minor to grumble about.