I ordered something online yesterday

[QueenOfFeckingEverything]

And the only options for 'title' on the webform were 'Mr' or 'Ms'.

It made me

Totally agree with Elephants & Thistledew on this one.

Until there's an equivalent for men, I will continue to be cross if I am only offered Mrs/Miss as an option on a form.

It's the inequality that has bothered me since I was about 14 and picked up on the double standard.

I was pondering this issue last night, in a bout of insomnia. I'm dreadfully excited about becoming 'Dr' (mostly because the damn thesis will be rid of, forever) but I'm also looking forward to regaining some of my privacy, in a way. A colleague was complaining about academics that sign themselves by first initial e.g. Dr C. Brown - she said that she always felt a bit ambiguous about them, as if she didn't really know what to make of them until she'd found out their gender. I found that a bit disconcerting, but see her point. Gender is such a big contextual factor in life, and I can (mostly) celebrate my gendered self ... but I'm looking forward to putting my marital status well and truly out of the employment picture.

FrozenNorthPole me too. I already use my initials in most correspondence. Dr will be a welcome escape from people's need to judge me by my marital status rather than my achievements.

Or, worse, by people who view my marital status as one of my achievements. (my mother, for one - she still writes to me as Mrs DH's Firstname-DH'slastname. Yeah, Mum, that's right, I've got a boy's name. Ugh.)

I'm never asked for my title (I'm stilling waiting to surprise people with the use of Dr), forms ask for first name or initial, last name and marital status. This has included medical, work bank set-up etc.

I really don't understand peoples attachment to Mrs, I don't think of myself as a wife first (I rarely think of myself as a wife) and it seems :( for that to be your primary definer

blackcurrents I have a family member and MIL who does that, except I'm not a Mrs (Dr), I don't have my husbands surname (and def. not his first name although I have 'boys' name) so it's wrong on all 3 accounts.

Heh :)

When people write to me as Mrs DH DH, the man in question (or my Phallic Signifier, as we sometimes call him) tends to pass me the post with "Oh look darling, your mother/sister/cousin is writing to my mighty mighty phallus again.")

It's always the women in my family who do this. Fucking handmaidens.

I always hand those to my husband and tell him they're for his other wife. And then he rolls his eyes at me. Oh, the long winter evenings, they just fly by.

Once titles are stripped down to just Mr or Ms, I find myself thinking, why bother at all? Why does gender matter? Why not just scrap 'em?

The only argument I can think of (minus the obvious marketing which they won't necessarily admit to) is it's only security thing to get right in terms of the card matching up like DOB (which is again far more useful for marketing).

Malifience 'if you are a married woman you are a Mrs get over it'

... Only if you change your name. If you change your name then Mrs makes sense, it gives people a clue that Mrs Sarah DHname might be the same person as Miss Sarah Ownname and hasn't gone into witness protection or just felt like a change etc....

If you don't change your name it sounds like you are married to you dad.

I paid for accomadation on a French website yesterday - the only options were miss and mrs (I guess because it was a direct translation) - both options felt kinda obscene - one like DH was going away with an underage schoolgirl, the other that he was going with someone elses wife.

French speakers - am I right in thinking Madame just connotes maturity, not necessarily 'wife of'? Is there an equivilent of Ms in French ?

Why do we need a title at all?

If we are getting over stuff how about this:

If you are a woman you are a Ms get over it.

Mr N Ebodie means "man whose initial is E and surname is Ebodie" with indication of marital status

Ms S Ombdie means "woman whose initial is S and surname is Ombdie" with no mention of marital status. It doesn't say you are not married, or that you are not happily married to the most wonderful man in the world, it just doesn't mention it.

AFAIK Madame/Mademoiselle in French and Fraulein/Frau in German are just indicators of "I am a grownup" vs "I am a child/young person".

I've already said that I think having a title is a bit pointless, but I can understand why companies want to put you into a gender box for their marketing and customer profiling, so I don't think we are going to persuade them to drop it altogether.

I do feel a bit when people who don't know me call me by first name though...chummy technical support people and cold calling sales people etc...Maybe if we could get over that then we could do away titles.

Also teachers have to call you something, and its easier for them to call you mr/ms childssirname than to have to remember 60 adult's first names on top of 30 children.

(my name is not Ms Childssirname actually, because DS's have DH's name, but I don't mind if they call me this in this context as it seems to mean 'adult belonging to this child', rather than 'woman belonging to this man')

In some culture's in Africa a woman's public name gets changed to 'Mama firstDS's name'

I think Ms/Mr is probably the best compromise, comrade and citizen assume too much, Person doesn't assume anything, but I don't think it will catch on.

Trillian - yes that is what I thought about French & German, but they don't have a male version of 'I am a young person' do they? ('Master'...) there is still a kind of sexually available/not sexually available signal in the name?

apostrophe shame

I don't like Ms. I changed my surname when I married (as did DH, we double-barrelled) so I changed my title too.

I would use Ms if that was the only choice, but I prefer Mrs, because that's what I am and I'm proud of it, and our new fairly unusual surname. DH is too, it's lovely being able to write it. He'd be very happy if there was a similar distinction (ie a new title) for being a married man.

What did annoy me though was that when we decided to change our surname, we were told that as a woman I could just do it, whereas for DH to use it in the most official capacity he'd need to change it by deed poll! WTF ATM our old names are still on our passports etc so we are going to save up and both get them changed by deed poll.

SDTG - I agree with you.

I understand that many women want to use Ms, and that's fine but those of us that want to use Mrs should be able to.

Don't you think it's just a bit TMI on most occasions though? A bit like calling yourself Lucy Jones MA or Tabitha Smith Giving-Up-Smoking>

What's wrong with Ms exactly?

I just feel that Ms implies (rightly or wrongly!) that you are trying to hide your single or married status, like either one is something to be ashamed of.

Yes, we ARE trying to hide it. Do you think it's strange that men's titles conceal their marital status?

TrillianWhoIsMostDefinitelyNotATwat - there are a couple of things wrong with Ms, for me. I don't think it's a proper word, and I don't like the way it sounds (Mzzzzzz). Plus, as I've said earlier, I feel it denies my attachment to my dh and my dses (though I accept not everyone needs to use Mrs to feel this attachment - it is purely the way I feel).

I think what we are trying to say is that it should be normal to not tell delivery companies about your marital status.

The current/old norm was for women to have no choice but to reveal whether they are married, so you think that not saying Mrs is "hiding" your marital status. That's understandable within the current cultural norms but it is silly.

I like Elephants's explanation - there is no reason why it should be normal to tell delivery people your marital status any more than it should be normal to tell them your age or how many degrees you have or whether you have curly or straight hair. It's completely irrelevant information.

If there was an option on the menu to fill in your choice of title, and if you chose not to fill this in, no title would be used - would that be acceptable to most people? I'd be OK with that, and it would avoid the issue of people feeling they were being asked their marital status, as you'd have to make a positive choice to enter a title, rather than having to actively opt out of using one, if you see what I mean.

I do see that but if you think about it, it's not the individual man who is hiding their marital status. It is (unfortunately) convention that has given men only one title. Whereas for a woman, you have the choice. And I don't want to choose to hide it. My DH would enthusiastically use the married one if there was a choice of titles for men, because he wouldn't want to hide it either. It is a shame he doesn't have the choice, but I don't think that means I should give up my choice.

I definitely agree it's pointless giving the info in many cases like deliveries, but I don't see the harm in it either.

Yes I like that idea SDTG - I probably would fill it in anyway but that gives the maximum choice to everyone.

I think the Frau/Fraulein and Signorina/Signora stuff is age-based, not marital status based, but some things do age you... Certainly when we all went to a local italian place (me, my female friends, and DS) I was called Signora for the first time in my WHOLE LIFE (am 31. Look 35) while my friends were called 'principessa' (I think a version of "awright Princess!" as they were seated. Having a baby clinging to me is clearly a sign that I am a Signora now, and must be given Respek. Or something!