'Man-hating feminism'

[MisterDarsey]

There's an article about this in the Times today by Libby Purves, provoked by Lionel Shriver's portrayal of the boy in 'We need to talk about Kevin'

Just thought you'd like to know

Catmilk - stop quoting me out of context.

We have discussed some ideas on this thread that are quite tricky to put into words. We have been trying to understand and explore these concepts. Quoting posters out of context is rude and unhelpful in the extreme, when people have tried hard to be precise in what they are saying.

I will not be responding to the inane remarks that you have put after quoting me out of context - there is no need to because the answer is in the original post. In other words, the answer is in the context that you have ignored.

I find posters who scan threads for snippets, that they can quote out of context, in order to name call, tiresome and extraordinarily rude BTW.

why I'm leaving

dittany - "You sneered at me for pointing out that a hundred million girls and women are missing in India and China, and claimed that pointing it out was "man-hating". Pointing out what men do to women sends you into a rage, but their actual harmful genocidal actions don't. Don't you think that's a bit messed up?

Aren't you in a rage that 100 million women and girls don't even have lives in India and China just because of their sex? If not why not?"

I wrote that the point is this thread is about feminist man-hating, not to be derailed/dismissed or shut-up with facts about missing girls in India and China, True, basic point, easy to comprehend - or you could just say I am ambivalent about genocide. FFS. That's the level of debate around here.

---

Sparky, my view of the world, or the patriarchy is that we are controlled by a tiny group of rich white men. The average guy is not a part of it. The average guy supports womens rights, equality of opportunity, freedom etc. The average guy is pretty decent, no worse than the average woman. Some here definitely agree with that, I'm sure.. But there's enough 'prime movers' here who will swarm any thread to drown out such thoughts. It was made crystal clear in my AIBU thread.

"is it man-hating to point out that it's down to men and their hatred of women that 100 million girls and women are missing in India and China. Or is it woman-hating to hate women so much that you create a society where such a thing happens."

Yes, because saying its 'men' (not 'some men') that do that is not exactly true, women go along with it, and most importantly, ie the bit you won't address, 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening. Yet you tar them all with the same brush - they are the enemy, it is clear in many of your posts, and is why you and your kind (that i am v familiar with, trust me) are no different to the men who hate all women because of bad experiences with a few.

"Man-hatred doesn't exist. When women start destroying, killing, abusing, raping and harming men and boys on the scale that men do to women, then it's reasonable to talk about it. Until then it isn't."

Classic man-hater LUDICROUS denial - 'man-hating doesn't exist'* and change of subject to, "well men (again, the whole gender) are much worse, so we can say what we like, shut up."

Oh and I'm going...if my exit is too long for you, there are plenty of other threads.

*Anyone want to agree with me that it obviously does? No one? My point proven again.

" 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening"

That's just not right though. Most of the men I know enjoy their position of privilege, most of them don't even realise that they hold privilege.

Even little things like porny pictures of women everywhere, thinking that shouting an upsetting comment at a woman is funny, being able to continue pretty much as if nothing has happened when they have children if that's what they want, enjoying elevated pay and prospects compared to equally able women, and so on and so on. Ordinary men do not rise up against these things.

eg my DH works in a job which is "male", as do some of his friends. The wage for the job (as a "male" job) is much higher than market forces say it should be. Are him and his friends fighting for more pay for equivalent female roles, or shouting that they should get less money? Are they fuck.

I haven't known men who shouted upsetting comments at women BTW, that bit came out wrong! Clearly there are lots of "ordinary" men who think this type of behaviour is funny though.

What I wrote "Sparky, my view of the world, or the patriarchy is that we are controlled by a tiny group of rich white men. The average guy is not a part of it. The average guy supports womens rights, equality of opportunity, freedom etc. The average guy is pretty decent, no worse than the average woman"

All that celadon felt compelled to reply -
"To suggest that the patriarchy is only a tiny group of rich white men is unbelievable."

The evidence just keeps stacking up. The funny thing is, most of you don't realise when you are proving my point.

" 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening"

That's just not right though. Most of the men I know enjoy their position of privilege, most of them don't even realise that they hold privilege.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Go check what the 'it' in my sentence referred to, then come back and tell me men don't find that sickening.

Oh and most men support women's equal rights & opportunities 100% (in this country) are aware of the benefits they've inherited from the patriarchy. I don't have stats to back that up, just 42 years of experience.

Referring to the missing women and girls in india/china?

I'm sure most men in the UK don't know about it / haven't thought about it / don't give it a second thought.

I know that the ordinary men across the world are happy in their position of dominance. Or at least if they aren't happy, not unhappy enough to do anything about it.

The ordinary men in the UK have less visible power (unlike places like Afghanistan and Saudi) but it is there bubbling under the surface. Ordinary men in most countries don't even notice the privilege that they have, let alone act to change it. I am sure most men in Afghanistan are not horrible, they have just been raised in a society that sees women in a certain way and has certain rules for them and so for them it is normal. It's the same everywhere.

The point isn't that all individual men are horrible - obviously they aren't. But that society and power structures are in place so that all over the world men are in power over women and children and it's so pervasive that most people (men women and children) don't even notice.

"Oh and most men support women's equal rights & opportunities 100% (in this country) are aware of the benefits they've inherited from the patriarchy"

Not in my experience.

Loads of the most privileged group (white relatively wealthy men) think that everything is going to the dogs as they don't have as much privilege as they used to. Men bemoan women going to pubs and drinking pints, they don't like women driving, it annoys them when women in their workplace have a baby.... Loads of stuff, little teeny tiny stuff that gives the game away.

"Referring to the missing women and girls in india/china?

I'm sure most men in the UK don't know about it / haven't thought about it / don't give it a second thought."

So offensive!

"Loads of the most privileged group (white relatively wealthy men) think that everything is going to the dogs as they don't have as much privilege as they used to. Men bemoan women going to pubs and drinking pints, they don't like women driving, it annoys them when women in their workplace have a baby.... Loads of stuff, little teeny tiny stuff that gives the game away."

Most men do not bemoan women going to pubs! This is ridiculous!

Meanwhile still no one has answered my challenge to just post the simple fact that yes, like woman-hating, man-hating does exist (contrary to what was said earlier)

Anyone? Anyone want to say 'look whatver rubbish catmilk might be saying, it's silly to say man-hating DOES NOT EXIST or that there are no women that just think of men as 'the enemy.'"

Because if you say this, you don't prove everything I say correct - obviously - but you may lose points with the power-poster extremists who are watching and will punish you later... ha.

""Referring to the missing women and girls in india/china?

I'm sure most men in the UK don't know about it / haven't thought about it / don't give it a second thought."

So offensive!"

Why?

Most women aren't aware of it either. It's not something that is out there in the public consciousness of "things that are happening". People are aware that some cultures prefer males and that it can lead to problems, but most aren't aware of the scale of the problem.

That's just how it is.

""Loads of the most privileged group (white relatively wealthy men) think that everything is going to the dogs as they don't have as much privilege as they used to. Men bemoan women going to pubs and drinking pints, they don't like women driving, it annoys them when women in their workplace have a baby.... Loads of stuff, little teeny tiny stuff that gives the game away."

Most men do not bemoan women going to pubs! This is ridiculous!"

Men of my dads generation aren't keen on women in pubs (unless they are there with there husband for a quick G "n" T). Many many men of my dads generation and my generation have a problem with women drinking pints.

I'm sure that there are women who hate men. Women who have been treated very badly by men, or had horrible fathers. The girls who were left in a burning building as the religious police wouldn't let the firefighters rescue them as their faces weren't covered have good reason to hate men. The ones who didn't die, anyway. There are a thousand examples of women who might hate men.

What has that got to do with feminism?

"Most women aren't aware of it either."

Maybe, so why was the point twisted into this
Me - "99% of men in this country are sickened too"
You - "That's just not right though. Most of the men I know enjoy their position of privilege, most of them don't even realise that they hold privilege."

You are saying men are complacent/ignorant about such things, because their privilege makes them not want to care about such things' A vile thing to say about men, or women.