transexualism

[intransition]

OK I am quite prepared to be shot down in flames but would prefer some reasoned debate

I am transgender ie a genetic male who has always felt more comfortable in a female role. I have always dressed as such whenever possible and when presenting as such felt completely comfortable. i have been almost asexual for most of my life but as a female enjoy the attentions of men and their response to me

I live and work as female and am accepted as such - i know all about the law regarding discrimination etc

However some of the strongest criticism has been from women who regard themselves as feminists. It has to be added that I have had enormous support from other girls also and some tremendous and enduring friendships

I am aware of the concepts of gender as a social construct i.e i wasnt socialised as a female and didnt have those experiences as a litlle girl , teenager etc
biologically i dont have a menstrual cycle , cant concieve or give birth etc etc etc but I can function in society in my role . Am I a sister ? an abhorrence? deluded? Do i deserve support or derision?

I don't think this will end well

My love, you are going to get shot down in flames. Not by me, but this is not in the main a very trans-friendly site. Think Julie Bindel.

I think you deserve support as a member of a group which has been derided by the patriarchy.

What you don't deserve though, is the right to say that you are a woman exactly the same as a woman who has 2 xx chromosomes and has been socialised as a woman. I'm happy with the idea of 3 sexes, I'm not happy with the concept that anyone who isn't designed as a man, must automatically be a woman, because all a woman is, is a negative man, rather than a positive human in her own right.

I am uncomfortable with your formulation of being "more comfortable in a female role". What female role? AFAIC, a female role is one of subordination to a male. I can't understand why anyone would be comfortable in that role. Feminism is about ensuring that women don't have to be subordinate anymore. Why would anyone seek subordination?

My closest trans mate is a very outspoke lesbian feminist

OK some response . I too would rather use the concept of a third sex. I dont see 'a female role' as being subordinate sorry I dont use it in that sense probably the wrong use of words . In a perfect world pluralism and tolerance and equality would rule This one however is imperfect

Yes I agree I'm not conscious of being "a woman" in a sex sense, but in a gendered one I'm more and more conscious of acting out my gendered role as a woman. Every time I stroke another male colleague's ego in the way a female colleague would find superfluous and slightly suspicious, for example.

wow I find I'm agreeing with so much of what is said , I guess in my simplistic explanation of feeling male or female i'm just making life easier for everyone by conforming to the dichotomy view which is not necessarily what i believe by the way. Also the medicalisation of trans-identity is i agree disturbing and the brutalisation of surgery is worrying , I dont feel i am defined by my genitals but I feel so distant from what is perceived as ' male ' in our society

hi intransition,
"I feel so distant from what is perceived as ' male ' in our society"

This is completely understandable, when you see how men behave in our society. No human being in their right mind would want to be part of that, part of masculine culture, I mean.
You do deserve support, in the same way that teenage girls who feel their bodies are disgusting because they don't fit traditional beauty standards deserve support. The self-loathing that teenage girls go through in our society is a great tragedy that goes uncommented on every single day.
Because it happens to women.

The problem is that the trans activist movement is stepping on women's toes, and women are supposed to just step aside (because that is what women do, right?) In the UK, a man who thinks he's a woman can have his birth certificate changed from M (male) to F (female) which means he can enter all spaces designated for women. It means he can enter a female prison and the women there are given no protection. He may be benign (as you appear to be), but he may be a misogynistic sexual predator. How are we to know? Who is checking? His rights as an XY person i.e a male, supercede the rights of women.
And thus it has always been.

So on a personal level, I very much empathize and identify with trans issues. After all, all feminists suffer from GID, otherwize we wouldn't be feminists! We'D just be happy in our prescribed gender roles.

But the way transexuals are going about getting their rights at the expense of born women does not sit well with me at all. And if that behaviour doesn't prove they're still men then I don't know what does!

But the way transexuals are going about getting their rights at the expense of born women does not sit well with me at all. And if that behaviour doesn't prove they're still men then I don't know what does!

Can you expand that sakura? I don't understand how transexuals' rights are coming at the expense of women. Also, surely in your example above the person must have been physically altered so they no longer possess male genitalia to be considered a woman? I can see the problem with defining a man without his penis as a woman, as it basically reduces the concept of a woman to a man minus his penis and testicles, but our definition of gender is problematic anyway.

I think the dichotomy is problematic and think gender should be a much more fluid concept, there are lots of people around who don't conform to the XX or XY chromosomal pattern so we define their gender by their appearance.

the patriarcy hates women-it hates masculine women and effeminate men.
so it is rather odd that someone would comform[transision]and then say
"let me help you fight the patriarcy"!

"all feminists suffer from GID, otherwize we wouldn't be feminists! We'D just be happy in our prescribed gender roles."

Ha, this is so true. I think that's one of the things that gets (some) feminists backs up about campaigners for the rights of transexuals - acknowledging that there is a way to "behave" female kind of flies in the face of what feminists want to do in terms of breaking through preconceived ideas of gender roles. I mean, when I put trousers on or go to work or sleep around or swear or drink beer I don't become a man, I'm not even behaving in a manly way, I'm just behaving in a way the patriarchy has coded "male". So to acknowledge that you can or should become a woman by acting a certain way is just fitting right in with the patriarchy.

I'm happy for you to call yourself what ever you like. I feel uncomfortable with your idea that women are what they wear, how they act, what role they perform though.

Just as Elephants says, a women might drink, swear and wear trousers but that doesn't make her male, it makes her who she is. I'm happy for any man to wear a dress and wash dishes all day but that won't make him a woman, anymore than my dress and the fact that I washed up after breakfast make me a women. I just am.

What you choose to call yourself and how you behave makes you......you and no one else and no one has the right to label.

Just because you feel distant from the male stereotype doesn't make you a woman it just makes you a different kind of man. I don't believe surgical adjustments to genitalia alter that. I feel differently about hermaphrodites. Where the biological determination is ambiguous, I think there is scope for self-definition.

It's all interesting stuff and intellectually a lot of cogent argument. I would personally adhere to a view of a continuum of gender expression and sexual orientation with all of us popping up somewhere on the sclae but possibly a surprising number congregating around the middle

I'm not a crusader for transgender ' rights' but i'm a little disturbed by the concept that one group's rights trump another's

Oh and I have no desire to alter my genitalia and no illusion it would 'make ' me a woman despite my sexual fantasies almost exclusively involving heterosexual scenarios with myself as female - I expect now to be branded as fetishistic lol

psychoveggie, a man who thinks he's a woman doesn't even have to have his penis removed to get his M scrapped and changed to an F on his birth certificate.
Then (because of the newly minted F) enter women's prisons, rape centres, women's public toilets, women's dormitories, all women's colleges
It's a joke.

he can enter

"think the dichotomy is problematic and think gender should be a much more fluid concept, there are lots of people around who don't conform to the XX or XY chromosomal pattern so we define their gender by their appearance."

Umm. psychoveggie.
ALL females are XX. Every other person are variations of XY. IF a Y chromozome is present that person is no longer female.

But we're talking abotu intersex here. A real medical condition. And that is derailing. Because the subject her is not interex, it's TRANS.
TRANSsexuals cannot be intersex and they cannot be female, however much they want to be.

HOWEVER, one of the MAIN things that feminists have been pointing out for YEARS is that gender is not only fluid, IT DOES NOT, in fact, EXIST. It is made up. That's why it differs from culture to culture. Gender i.e the set of prescribed behaviours assigned to males (masculinity) and females (femininity) serves to perpetuate patriarchy

That's why feminists want to get rid of gender so we can all behave as we like.
That's also why the patriarchy LOVES trans activism because it keeps the Masculine/dominant Feminine/subordinate gender roles entrenched

intransition,
" i'm a little disturbed by the concept that one group's rights trump another's"

IT disturbs me every single day transition. It disturbs me that without street protests or force feedings or marches men have been able to change the M to an F on their birth certificate without even asking women. It disturbs me that ALL XY people are so privileged they cannot even see their privilege. They are DRIPPING with privilege and they call women privileged!>|?!?!?!?!

Sakura, have you been at the crack pipe this morning????

No just insane.
I plan to be labelled insane by someone AT LEAST once a week on this feminist section so that I know I'm on the right track

Be careful sakura or you'll have the Mental Health activists onto you , dont you know. Just because you want to be insane doesnt make you so