can i ask a feminist perspective of the full face veil, neqab.

[tomhardyismydh]

I just wondered if any of you well informed inteligant ladies, could belive that some women now 'own' the veil as thier own feminist stand against being an object for the the male gaze.

or is the feminist stance collect on the veil being opressive etc.

I am asking simply out of interest based on the newsnight interview last night.

Well said eyeofhorus

To me, it is impossible to defend the wearing of the veil with feminism. The onus is not on women to control men's sexual urges by what they wear or what they do and that is the sub text of the veil - that men are untamed beasts who need women to cover up to prevent molestation. That is oppressive and misogynistic and abusive on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

For me, my feminism comes before any liberalism I adhere to ( which isn't much, TBH). I feel so many negative emotions when I see fully veiled women . Interestingly, in Abu Dhabi for example, men and women dress the same pretty much. Men in white full length and head dress and women in black with a headdress.

You are right, DarthNiquabi. I cannot understand how you think. I cannot understand how you can possibly believe in your religion. It seems quite ridiculous to me. (I am an atheist) Even for people who have grown up with it, I cannot understand why they don't just stop for a minute and think "What on earth am I doing? This stuff doesn't make any sense! Why am I continuing to believe in it in defiance of logic!"

However, even if I understood why some women choose to veil, I would still support a ban on the burqa. I still believe it is for the good of society as a whole. The other extreme (general nudity in the streets) is also not considered acceptable. People are not free to make that choice either. Choice is, as you put it, actually being taken away from people in many things. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I think the veil is a symbol of the opression of women and also a tool for the opression of women. I think I would support a ban on wearing the veil in public in the UK although it is a hard call because laying the law down about what to wear seems OTT in some ways.

I am not at all anti muslim and I don't believe that this view is anti muslim. I think that the muslim religion needs to be a modern religion and to embrace changes in modern society with regard to the development of women's rights. I have young male british muslim friends who would agree. This is not a political swipe at muslims. It is a political swipe against the opression of women. I do not believe that the opression of women is a bedrock of the muslim religion just beacause some muslims choose to oppress women.

I am not anti muslim either. I loathe all religions equally

Removing social and political freedoms is the first step to tyranny.

You are right, KM. It is dreadful the way that religion removes social freedom in this way. [deliberating misunderstanding the point emoticon]

Tricky one, this.

Women being forced to wear the veil is atrocious. Men then forcing women NOT to wear the veil, is equally as bad. Whichever it is looked at, the man is still dictating (perhaps not directly but certainly indirectly, through culture, take Afghanistan for instance) what a woman can and cannot wear. However. If the woman chooses to wear it (and many of them do) and they are forced to remove it, then it just reiterates the argument that men presume that womens' bodies are for public use.

Not sure about that LotM. It suits the pro-burqa to personalise this and pretend that it is all down to one man. However, last I knew, France was a democracy with a Government in charge. It is not a man forcing them to remove it, it is French society which is very keen on conformity and prescription eg the Napoleonic Code. We work on the principle that things are allowed unless they are legislated against. The French work on the principle that things are not allowed unless they are legislated for.

Purits- I think you'll find the French Govt and therefore those that voted in are probably (haven't checked stats) in majority, men.

There's a reason no one likes France..!

as you were.

not really a feminist view, but I asked my dh what he thinks.

he says he is quite offended by women wearing the veil as it implies that every man is a sexist monster that cannot be trusted near unveiled women.

imo, I don't agree with the veil at all, it makes an individual woman into a, literally, faceless figure.

Mousy do you agree with women being told what to and to not wear?

Absolutelyfabulous "Interestingly, in Abu Dhabi for example, men and women dress the same pretty much. Men in white full length and head dress and women in black with a headdress."

except that wearing full length black robes is not the same as wearing full length White robes in a hot, dusty country. White reflects heat and is comfortable, but not practical for doing any work in. Black is hellishly hot but hides the dirt.

I'm not defending it Himalaya, but it is far more equal than what we witness here.

Most work in Abu Dhabi is done by immigrants, BTW. Not by the indigenous population.

Abfab - no, I know from the rest of your post that you are not defending the veil, but just wanted to point out that white and black are not equally comfortable colours to wear, or equally high status colours (even if in practice immigrants do much of the work now in countries with oil), so I am not sure that the situation is more equal in Abu Dhabi etc.. at all.