can i ask a feminist perspective of the full face veil, neqab.

[tomhardyismydh]

I just wondered if any of you well informed inteligant ladies, could belive that some women now 'own' the veil as thier own feminist stand against being an object for the the male gaze.

or is the feminist stance collect on the veil being opressive etc.

I am asking simply out of interest based on the newsnight interview last night.

Actually, no, I don't think it is obvious. Please explain to me how a woman wearing very little is about self respect.

I didn't say very little I said exposing.

Exposing yourself, in the UK anyway, is illegal.

I don't see it that way Dittany. But you're entitled to your opinion.

TheCrackFox - quite agree.

Oh, how unusual. Someone who sees no middle road, but talks of either burka or exposing oneself. The rest of us women, neither burka-clad nor exposing ourselves, are invisible, I suppose.

LisasCat - I was interested to read about your friend in Kuwait "She wore it so that people meeting her for the first time got to know her for her mind, not for her appearance. She certainly made me stop dead in my tracks and re-evaluate my opinion of the veil."

However this lady sounds like she had freedom to "choose" and these anecdotes cannot for me justify what I see to be a clear opression of women as a group - i.e. I think it is harmful to women as a group.

Wearing a veil so that people get to know you for your mind not your appearance - well yes that will be a byproduct - this is what happens on MN - we judge via posts not appearance!

I would rather campaign to try to teach people not to make decisions based on appearance than effectively condone blanking out someone's appearance entirely.

dittany, that list is horrible.

"13. If it is necessary to talk, they must talk in a low voice and without laughter."
just to crown it all off. You can't even laugh to cheer yourself up with the awful situation you are in.

alexpolismum I'm not sure where you read that? I certainly didn't write it. Most of us occupy the middle ground. I was just contributing to the discussion, posting my views as I see them. No need to make sarcastic comments that I can see.

dittany - thanks for posting that list - just and really if anyone needs evidence of men's opression of women - then that list is a good place to go

UN Report is also good at shedding light on harmful traditional practices wrt to women in Afganistan]].

alexpolismum I'm not sure where you read that? I certainly didn't write it. Most of us occupy the middle ground. I was just contributing to the discussion, posting my views as I see them. No need to make sarcastic comments that I can see.

perhaps sarcasm was uncalled for, I apologise.

Apology accepted

It's not really about the choices women make but more about the reasons for making them.

Often what superficially may seem like a "free choice" turns out to be no such thing. It can be that the woman making the choice is unaware of how and why the choice is not in effect free choice.

Dittany, I was aware that list of rules you posted applied uner the Taliban rule however I thought there were less restrictions now and was under the impression that the wearing of the burqa was no longer compulsory.

"no longer compulsory" - hardly means it's all hunky-dory in Afganistan now does it!

thanks ditteny et el. some interesting reading. I now feel for those women who chose to wear the veil are doing so inspite of their historical sisters and those who are forced into it. It is a no brainer how can that be a move or stance towards feminism.

Im wasnt sure what I feel about the ban, but I think my opinion is for it, having considered a little more about the origins of choice on this matter.

sorry dittany not ditteny

Someone once said "the trouble with liberal values is that they are almost impossible to defend using liberal values." I would argue that the case of the burqua is one of the best examples of this.

The liberal has a quandary. On the one hand, the burqua when worn is arguably repressive, restrictive and divisive and a symbol of female oppression. On the other, some muslim women argue that it's their choice to wear it, and liberals are pro-choice. The liberal must therefore decide whether to repress those who say they want to wear it, in order to uphold the wider liberal values, or allow "personal" choice at the expense of the wider values.

By saying "the burqua is banned" you rescue some women from tyranny, but restrict the freedoms of others.