I don't want to be a feminist

[ShirleyKnot]

Honestly.

I don't. I don't want to see all of this that you bastards have shown me.

I always considered myself to be a

bumperlicious I once complained in church as well! the lay preacher was making some rambling point about kindness and he had chosen a 'fallen woman' as an example of the lowest of the low. it made my blood boil and as politely as I could I challenged him about that at the back of the church. I really stayed calm though, but made my point. BUT i don't think he was capable of absorbng that a good point had been made. He's been moved on now.... so he's making sermons entrenched in misogyny somewhere else now.

shimmery I'm the same, but I read that feminists are made not born. So I don't feel bad now about my 20s when I was clueless and pitied 'humourless' women who challenged men (because they were old and no longer fuckable the poor things - so i thought).

I had the weekend off and have come back to this thread to see lots of really interesting stuff!

I am gutted though to realise that I can't go back. I know I should feel glad, but I don't, especially as I work in a totally male environment, in a male industry. I don't want to be glaring and angry, and if I speak up too often I'll probably lose my job.

Going back to the "ladette" thing - I totally agree with what HerBex said earlier on the thread, "the meejah jumped with it and hey presto the ladette was born - and then twenty years later, young women found that they had to be ladettes or they were labelled prudes, lesbians or just plain ugly"

It's worse now though, I weep for this generation of young women - the pressure on them is just incredible.

and when you've had your weep ensure your boys grow up to treat women as equals

Well I am trying ohmeohmy. They are being raised by two strong women.

Yay! I've found a local fem group being set up by another mnetter!

I am sure you are SK, my mum did a good job with my two brothers so I know it can be done.

I did have a good laugh at Bumper's 'link' - I have encountered one or tow 'groups' like this before. It's basically going to consist of three old farts who can't get a shag, and a stray dog, so hardly a dangerous enemy.

Well, yeah. BUt that's what whinyarsed losers everywhere are like. This is just another flavour of whinyarsed loser, the sort of people who if it wasn't feminism they were whining about it would be 'political correctness' and not being allowed to wish their colleagures a happy Xmas in case it offends foreigners. Blatant bigots never get very far: the BNP for instance are pretty much a spent force politically despite the airtime.

Excuse my ignorance but why are women repressed?

Why have women allowed this to happen?

I am not doubting female repression but wondering where and how it all began.

There's a parable about a time, long ago, when people went around having sex with one another for fun. They had babies, thought they were lovely and shared them. They didn't realise sex caused babies. Eventually, they made the connection. Soon after that, they figured it would be nice to know which sex had caused which baby. Fair enough, but they couldn't tell at the time because they were all randomly having sex all over the place. So they reckoned it's be a good idea to make sure each woman only had sex with one man (at least for a year, or however long it took to get pregnant.) This meant they had to stop the women doing whatever they wanted and keep tabs on them - just so the men could know which babies were 'theirs'.

It probably did happen something like that. For a lengthy debate, take a look at the patriarchy thread.

some people think it began with the invention of agriculture, but we don't really know.

I did hear once that in the bones from early agricultural settlements, the women's show signs of wear from repetitive labour like grinding corn, which would suggest oppression from that early.

but we don't really know enough about pre-agricultural societies to be able to say with confidence that everything was equal among hunter-gatherers.

I've had a couple of "those" conversations recently - you know the ones... Talking about not changing your name after marriage, or making sure that DH pulls his weight round the house, or not having sex just cos he's in the mood even when you're not. One of the other women in the group looks at you and says (in a hushed and horrified tone) "Catspjs, are you a...a...feminist?" And in the past, I might have changed the subject. Or fudged the answer. But since the MN feminist section, I look 'em straight in the eye, stick out my lower jaw in a belligerent fashion, and growl "Yes...And?" It is frightfully liberating. And no one ever calls me on it either! Although I did have one girl, a whole decade and more younger than me, say "Wow, I've never met anyone like you before!"

Is that a compliment do you think?

We don't know really, though archaeological technology is throwing up lots of evidence to refute patriarchal assumptions about our ancestors! Seth, all the early farmers had shocking wear & tear in their bones, not just women. It was an horrifically hard life.

I've sometimes wondered why the women in the parable didn't keep the men housebound for their paternity experiment - the obvious answer is, because it's easier for a man to lock down a pregnant & brestfeeding woman than for the same woman to lock down a man. And there you have it: the origins of patriarchy in male force against women.

And to respond to the OP (which is what I meant to do actually in the last post), I am angry all the time. Even DH has noticed it recently and I think he would prefer it if I stayed away from this board... (ha ha!)

I didn't know that Garlicbutter, thanks!

And sorry - I seem to have blundered into the middle of a far more interesting and intellectual discussion!

"it is liberating to let go of guilt and the requirement to be a 'good woman"

Nodding vigorously at that, though I never particularly had guilt or was bothered about being a good woman, I did feel that pressure of wanting to fit in. And now I don't give a fuck.

That thing about losing respect for people struck me though, because I too have lost so much respect for so many people I know, the people I really respect are such a small group now.... But that is disturbing, that noticing that someone's head is full of shit, when 5 years ago I could have ignored it.

Dating has also become a bit tricky - it has become easier in some ways, simply because I don't expect to share the values of a man I shag anymore... I tend to assume that they'll be in thrall to patriarchal values and opinions and don't care because it doesn't matter as I'm not planning to move in with them...this is v. negative and bad isn't it, but at the same time it's incredibly liberating.

Careful, HerBex ... that's what I used to tell myself when I was, in fact, shagging utter tossers who didn't deserve to share the air I breathe (ahem, fag smoke) let alone my body! I'm not assuming you're throwing babies out with bathwater - but just in case, eh.

catspjs, I loved reading your posts! Was nodding along, but doing a bit too much multitasking to reply :)

HerBex: I agree with you, it's enormously liberating to shag men you want to, just for the sake of it, and not feel you have to spend the foreseeable future feeding their egos.

OMG, I have been trying to google for feminist stats (see my thread on how to get DH to realise why feminism is important. I've decided stats are they way to make DH realise why his wife and 2 daughters need feminism) but I keep coming across anti-feminist websites like this and this, and in the same vein of the op they are making me feel physically sick, whereas maybe a year ago they wouldn't have bothered me.