I don't want to be a feminist

[ShirleyKnot]

Honestly.

I don't. I don't want to see all of this that you bastards have shown me.

I always considered myself to be a

Last night I stayed up for a TV programme about 18-30 holidays in the 80s, as I was still thinking about what some of you have said about being 'ladettes'. Wanted to see whether my memories were skewed. I saw nothing there but young women discovering liberation! Not in ways I would have particularly enjoyed (I never did go on one of those holidays) but, honestly, those girls were enjoying freedom as they saw fit - expressing themselves both drunk and sober, revelling in sexual independence, forging new friendships, calling their own shots and making their own choices.

The programme interviewed some of the reps and some holidaymakers - in their mid-40s now. Older and wiser, but all looking back with affection.

The outstanding thing about the 18-30 girls was that they really didn't care what the boys thought of them. When you were talking about being ladettes, was that in some way trying to gain male approval as an honorary bloke? It's not the same thing, is it. Sometimes in my hard-drinking career, men would call me "one of the boys". I always used to say something like "Thanks, but actually I'm a woman if you hadn't noticed"

Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

Bumperlicioso I am the same. I understand the arguments in my head from reading them here but I can't seem to articulate them myself. It's very annoying.

What's your point with the 18-30 thing GB?

Am interested. 18-30 I think was the beginning of the ladette media construction wasn't it? It was a very good marketing ploy, tapping into something that was happening and genuine - young women feeling the freedom of feeling that they were the first generation to have no strings sex (although as someone who is now in her 80's snapped at me at least 20 years ago "every generation of young people think they invented bloody sex - you didn't you know") and that company jumped on that bandwagon, the meejah jumped with it and hey presto the ladette was born - and then twenty years later, young women found that they had to be ladettes or they were labelled prudes, lesbians or just plain ugly.

What I'm saying is, the media always jumps on somethng genuine and the patriarchy co-opts it so that it's no longer a choice and then many women say "I don't wnat to be a ladette/ have an abortion/ work full time when my baby's born/ have to give my DH a blow job in the name of sexual liberation every time he wants one isn't feminism awful, look how it's made women's lives so much worse than they were..." because the Daily Mail et al have told them that it was feminism which ensured that they had to be a ladette/ have an abortion etc., when what feminism was doing was telling women that they could do this if they wanted to - and so patriarchy has always got revenge on women by turning our demands on us unreasonably, so what we hear is "ner - you wanted sexual liberation - get yer tits out and don't complain if we surround you and your children with porn, you wanted equal rights, don't complain if we don't behave like a fucking normal human being and give you our seat on the train when you're pregnant" etc.

Am rambling to no purpose now.

Always good to ramble on a Sunday!

I felt bad about disputing Shirley's take on being a ladette, especially when some others said they felt the same as her. I wanted to check my perceptions and try to find out what some posters feel is 'wrong' about being a ladette (apart from the stupid moniker!) I had a fantastic couple of decades, 80s-90s, and consider women's freedoms then to have been good for feminism. I didn't feel pressured to be like a man or anything, but did some other women feel so?

I should add that I was very oppressed in my personal relationships, but that's to do with issues of my own psychology. I wasn't subservient in the world, only in "love". I was outspoken - and active - against sexism wherever I found it, and was well supported in all that. I really felt we were bounding forwards. How come other women didn't feel that?

She lost all her innocence
Gave in to an abcess
She lost all her innocence, she said
I am not
A feminist-ist-ist

(Courtney Love)

I realise my 'comment' wasn't particularly helpful

Can I blame mild sunstroke?

Joining you on your weekend ramble, Bex ...

... so you're saying the reactionary media make feminism look like compulsory sexual availability, coupled with puking drunkenly in the street and having lots of abortions? Tbh, I'm not sure they do. Or that people ae daft enough to believe it. I look at pictures of kids larging it on the Bigg Market, wearing beach clothes in the snow like I used to do, and I see young people pushing boundaries, having fun (and falling over a lot.) I'm interested to know whether I'm the one with skewed perceptions - do many women struggle with polarised ideas of what being a woman means? Even now? :(

Drink water and eat a banana, MP

I think there are lots of negative sides about ladette culture but there is also a positive side. The reason why it was seen by a lot of women as liberation is because in some respects it was: there was stuff that they weren't 'allowed' to do before that suddenly they were.
then some of those things became compulsory and hence oppressive in themselves and it always brought a lot of bad things with it, but it is still wrong to ignore the liberating elements of it. IMHO.

I think that means I agree with Garlicbutter. And everyone else.

I can remember years ago being aggressively told by another woman that I shouldn't drink pints (because only men are allowed to was the subtext although she didn't actually say those words). That was long before the ladette culture and I think in terms of destroying those male/female boundaries it was a good thing. Which is more or less what everyone else is saying :o

Shirls - get out of my head!!!!!! I was only thinking exactly your op this morning. Every advert I watch, every newspaper, every EVERYTHING and I'm saying to DP 'Did you see that? DID YOU GODDAMN SEE THAT???????'

He keeps hiding from me.

"... so you're saying the reactionary media make feminism look like compulsory sexual availability, coupled with puking drunkenly in the street and having lots of abortions? Tbh, I'm not sure they do. Or that people ae daft enough to believe it."

Not exactly. I'm saying that they'll say feminism is about whatever they want it to be about, as long as it's bad for women.

Its the way he backs away from me slowly if he sees me scowling at something on MN... he suddenly remembers he needs to 'finish the kitchen' (that he started 2 years ago)

The thing about 'ladettes' and 'choice feminism' was that actually it is worth claiming the right to behave a bit stupidly sometimes and not be punished for it far more heavily than men would be. If you have been brought up to be 'demure' and polite, and not swear, fart, drink or piss in the street because it's unladylike, to go through a phase of doing that sort of thing is liberating. I think the biggest liberation attached to 'choice' feminism has been the idea that a woman can do stuff just because she wants to - it;s a rebellion against the idea that women should always put their own needs and wishes behind everyone else's ie whatever a woman does is held up by the sexist media as 'a woman has done this therefore all women either really want to do this or should do this', with the flip side being 'Don't do what you want to do, because you're letting down feminism (as opposed to 'you're shaming your family/no man will ever marry you if you behave like that).

Trying to replace the old rules with new rules, based on "what women say they want"? Mmm, I see that. It's still bollocks, though - surely anyone can see a demure, reticent, teetotal woman sitting next to a half-dressed, fully-made-up, hungover woman on any morning train? Just the same as you see their male counterparts - the feminism is in the freedom to choose. Hadn't been aware of the expression "choice feminism", SGB - thanks! Sounds like where I'm at :)

Oh, OK, it's not where I'm at then! Though I defend a woman's right to do acrobatics while wearning 9-inch heels, should she want to

I agree with you shirley and all the others about how hard it is not to be permanently angry at the sexism in the world around us.

I also get really angry at myself; I cringe when I think of my behaviour pre my 'feminist awakening' and still have so much to learn.

For example, I have just been reading that thread by the man who wanted to stop using porn. My first instinct was a congratulate and advise him Thankfully some excellent posts opened my eyes but I wonder what else I haven't yet noticed.

It also doesn't help that the vast majority of my family and friends (apart from my DH) express sexist opinions on a daily basis and consequently I have been re-evaluating all these relationships and feeling really isolated; I am losing respect for many of those close to me and most attempts I make of 'challenging' their views fall flat.

I have been emailing a local feminist group but I honestly don't feel confident enough to actually attend yet

I keep finding interesting conversations late!

For me feminism including the anger gives me strength, the knowledge that most of what we see is socially constructed bullshit then you have the freedom do make different choices, live differently, challenge other people. That is not this say that I am entirely consistent or fight the good fight everyday..... but it is liberating to let go of guilt and the requirement to be a 'good woman'.

All work in progress ....... I still have times where my instinct to be polite and respectful overpowers the instinct to challenge, or like youmakemewana, I feel it has not quite worked, but my life far better having feminism in it.

I've just been googling for local feminist groups and this is what came up

There's no way to 'un' know or 'un' see.