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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2001 channel 4 documentary on porn

533 replies

darleneconnor · 04/04/2011 13:00

hcdocu.blogspot.com/

The best anti-porn evidence I've seen.

(Please watch with caution, some scenes are upsetting)

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 09/04/2011 22:12

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ChristinedePizan · 09/04/2011 22:15

Actually mumble, having read your posts on another thread, I think you're full of self-loathing. You're a woman and you exonerate men while holding women fully responsible for everything. Teenage girls for leading men on. Porn actresses for getting involved in some sadistic shit they didn't sign up for. And us for decrying patriarchy.

Please just go away. You have nothing useful to contribute.

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 22:17

Did you see the way that guy in the black t-shirt at the start of the documentary was looking at her? - yes, she;s a model wanting to be a porn star. Men look at women, in fact one of the first things she said was that its easier if she fancies the man - so presumably she is judging him on his appearance and sexuality.

Did you note the fact that the gangbang director couldn't even remember how many men the woman in the gang bang was expected to have sex with? Yep - what;s your point? Its a gang bang - both 'gang' and 'bang' don;t imply precision film planning to me. i thought the point was promescuity of it??? You have to count?

Did you see MH fold her over a chair and stick his penis in her within seconds of meeting her (I admit she didn't say 'no/stop', but it was plain she wasn't happy)?
She didn;t say no because she wanted the work/money he could offer her. Sorry, buut that was what she implied later.

Did you hear the dissapointment in the last porn directors voice when she said she wasn't prepared to be hit so hard in the film it would leave marks?

Yep. She obviously had no idea what she was going into. Perhaps a google into Max Hardcore and others would have helped.

On what planet is the above not an issue?
A planet where women are able to do basic research and are choosing to sell their bodies for money.

I actually am very vocal that women should be able to enter the porn/sex industry if they wish. But not like this.

True. Why the hell did she need a n agent - intelligent motivated woman like her should have started her own buisiness.

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 22:20

Wow. Self loathing? You think? I don;t hink reading a few of my posts enables you to get a full piocture of whio I am (not very feminist that is it??? Imagine if somebody saw my posts on food and washing and thought was all i did - gosh.)

SHE DID LITERALLY SIGN UP FOR WHAT SHE DID!!!!

I like men and women the same actually, I rarely recognise a gender difference. if it were lesbian porn and they were all women my vewis would be exactly the same.

I love my teenagers - it worries the crap out of me that they drink, have sex, get pregnant.

What exactly were you wanting me to contribute? Why are my vewis not valuable? I think you are the one loathing me, not me.

wubblybubbly · 09/04/2011 22:23

mumble, I don't know how you can watch that and be unmoved. A woman was raped FFS.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/04/2011 22:24

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K999 · 09/04/2011 22:29

Saw movies show violence against men too. In fact the first movie focusses on 2 men trapped in a toilet (??)

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/04/2011 22:30

isn't s/he the second poster to think it is the victim's own fault for not googling Max Hardcore beforehand (and never mind that this was 10 years ago when internet access was very far from universal)?

failed to do necessary internet research = deserved to be raped, apparently Confused

toddlerwrangler · 09/04/2011 22:33

Do have to agree with ^K999* that the SAW series does not seem to discriminate when it comes to who gets sliced and diced!

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/04/2011 22:36

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mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 22:38

No, i cannot empathise with her. When I decide to become a model and leave my 5 year old girl for three weeks to shag men for £600 dollar a pop I may be able to.

But not with this body.

She talked about Max hardcore so she obviously knew something about him.

Agree him penatrating her before speaking to her was nasty. I didn;t say that lack of research = deserving to be raped. please be careful with that kind of language.

toddlerwrangler · 09/04/2011 22:48

But you have already stated that you were not shocked or outraged?

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/04/2011 22:50

you're criticizing a rape victim for not having done 'basic research' as you call it.

dittany · 09/04/2011 23:06

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:09

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:12

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FuppyGish · 09/04/2011 23:13

I've been lurking and have watched the documentary, thank you op for the link.

Agree with pretty much everything thats been said (by the sensible posters obviously not the porn apologists) but do have one question that may be a bit stupid.

I think upthread someone said that the lady in the wrestling ring scene (not Felicity) was being raped. Was that said because she wasn't in the right mental state to give consent? I'm asking because I assumed that she had consented to be there (putting aside the hideousness of the whole situation) and to take part in the disgusting 'gangbang'?

I also saw various people say that Felicity was raped. Again was this because she was coerced into giving 'consent' and was again not in a fit state to give such consent? Or was the rape comment relating to the horrific choking by Max Hardcore?

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:14

I was outraged by the situation - not by the documentary, pologies for not getting that accross

Apparently this evening: I am stupid, self loathing and not fit to teach and am about to be deleted. So er thanks for the adivde and opinions.

Night

dittany · 09/04/2011 23:18

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:20

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mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:32

I emplained my lack of empathy. I did feel great sypathy for her and all others involved.

In terms of me watching porn - no i don;t watch as doesn;t really interest me. Nevr sure when people find the 'right time' to watch it to be honest. Specially with kids in house - folks can do what they wish [is necro and beastially is it legal - not sure? Sorry) But I have heard and know about death/animals. I believe mutilation was in a documentary as well - I really don;t like to watch that stuff personally.

Sorry if that was unclear

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:33

Also, you watched the porn on this doc - does that mean you've chosen to watch Max hardcore?

msrisotto · 10/04/2011 08:15

Mumble. I am saddened by your posts.

"The sex is real the abuse isn't" - Did you watch the documentary? If you did, you will see that firstly, she had very clear boundaries which she made very clear to her 'agent'. He ignored those boundaries as basically, sex that hurts, is more lucrative and he took her to Max Hardcore's place to break her will and go against her wishes for his monetary gain. This is abuse.

Secondly, the minute she met Max Hardcore, he had sex with her. She did not initiate this, was not an active participant, did not get paid, this was not part of a contract etc therefore there was NO motivation for her to consent to this act, as such it was rape. This is abuse.

I think they thing you are not understanding is that this was against her wishes, she didn't like it, didn't want it and it hurts. None of this is acceptable and if you can't understand this then you should be worried because you've been desensitised to women's pain and this is a moral deficit.

StewieGriffinsMom · 10/04/2011 08:17

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Beachcomber · 10/04/2011 09:14

Hi FuppyGish. Your question is interesting because it is looking at consent.

If we take the example of the women in the gang bang scene in the documentary, we could say that we know almost nothing about this women, right? We don't see her or hear her views. We can only assume that she had agreed to be filmed in this way because generally in most porn, the women have at some point agreed to be filmed and have those images distributed.

It is my understanding that the 'consent' documents in porn are about the right of the producer to film and distribute the images.

The women do also tend to fill out that hideous form with the list of acts that they agree to submit to.

For some people, the above means that the women has consented.

For a lot of feminists, the above doesn't mean shit. These are the reasons why;

The woman is being coerced, thereby consent is not freely given and is null. Women in porn are coerced by money, emotional blackmail and abuse, force, violence, drugs, etc.

Women are often told that certain things will happen in a scene and then when they get there, this is changed. It is difficult for the women to back out - we saw evidence of this in the documentary. The woman is no longer freely consenting however.

Women may 'consent' to do a gang bang - then once they start doing it, they may wish to stop - it is almost impossible for a woman to stop what is happening. Do you ever see a man asking a woman if she is still consenting to dick/slap/verbal abuse/painful penetration/ number X in a porn film?

A lot of woman go into the state of dissociation during a scene - they separate from themselves and go numb - they are in a state of shock and separating from their bodies in order to get through the ordeal. Women in this state are no longer consenting but they are unable to do anything about it.

Then we have the issue that so many (nearly all) women in porn are damaged by past abuse and or abandonment issues. Porn merchants purposely seek out women like this in order to exploit them. One could say that these women are 'coerced' by their emotional damage to act in self destructive ways. These are certainly women who are very vulnerable to coercion.

On the basis of the above, I take the view that women do not give meaningful consent to the acts in porn. This view is expressed by many of the men who work in porn - they speak about how 'you can get some whores to do anything by using method x, y or z'. They are perfectly aware that there is not meaningful consent for what they are doing.

Therefore I think that the vast vast majority of porn is made without meaningful consent from the women, therefore it is rape. I have exactly the same thoughts about prostitution. Indeed, for me porn is filmed prostitution.

On this thinking the woman in the gang bang scene is being raped.

A lot of women who are out of porn say exactly the above and they are able to look back and say that they were being raped. I think what I do from listening to those women.

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