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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2001 channel 4 documentary on porn

533 replies

darleneconnor · 04/04/2011 13:00

hcdocu.blogspot.com/

The best anti-porn evidence I've seen.

(Please watch with caution, some scenes are upsetting)

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 19:48

So, back to the interesting and important discussion that we feminists are having in our feminist forum about abuse and violence against real women in the real world.

Does anybody have any links to info or analysis about why women who have suffered abuse or who have self esteem issues can end up in porn. I can see that these women are vulnerable and don't value themselves and are reliving the sorts of experiences that have so hurt them. I get all that but would be really interested in some analysis that would help me to gather my thoughts on this. Thanks.

JessinAvalon · 07/04/2011 19:49

I would suggest checking out Shelley Lubben's website and having a look for her videos on youtube. She does have a religious agenda but, aside from that, has some powerful messages about the effect of the abuse on women in the porn industry.

dittany · 07/04/2011 19:50

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dittany · 07/04/2011 19:52

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dittany · 07/04/2011 19:55

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Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 19:57

I agree dittany. I was very disturbed by that image of wanking men getting ready to gang rape a woman.

Why? Why do they do it? I can see that some of them are psychopaths like MH, but they can't all be like that. Do they just delude themselves that the women don't mind?

I don't want to think that it is simply that there are an awful lot of men who are evil women hating fucks who enjoy treating women like this.

I agree again the documentary was very powerful because the men came across as so disgustingly awful in it.

One who disturbed me in particular was the youngish chap in the black T-shirt who was from some biggish company. He looked like a normal average guy but the way he looked at Felicity was chilling. He sort of smirked and raked his eyes over her - you could see he was thinking about how to exploit her and the bastard was smirking about the abuse to come that she was quite obviously naive about. He fucking terrified me as well. Actually all the men did.

Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 19:59

Thanks for the links. I'm familiar with Shelley Lubben and Robert Jensen but will read again. The reenactment link looks exactly like what I'm looking for. Cheers.

AyeRobot · 07/04/2011 20:00

diattany, I agree with "she didn't realise how bad it was going to be until it was too late" and that is why I have a big problem with the "but she chooses" to do it" stance. It's often the frog in cold/boiling water analogy - just like in DV situations. And supposedly ethical porn just doesn't cut it for men like this, whether participants or viewers, because it's not the sex itself that is the draw.

Andre1960 · 07/04/2011 20:00

JessinAvalon Absolutely! Topics picked by the women who run Mumsnet are essential reading for my daughter. It matters what you say, not just the manner in which you say it.

PeterAndreForEtc I have considered your accusation that I'm attention-seeking and concluded that that doesn't quite cover it. Widen your imagination.

Got to go now. Bye.

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 20:01

"she thought she could handle it, but she was wrong, she thought she was dealing with people who had at least a tiny kernel of human decency left inside them

she was wrong

I think that was the point of the documentary, in a nutshell

the sheer evil and inhumanity of it all...I don't know if anybody would comprehend that truly until faced with it"

I have had experiences like this. I thought I was dealing with a human being, with human feelings.

Some people don't have that gene, or have willingly suppressed it for their own gratification.

Very, very scary.

Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 20:07

Yes, that is it exactly. You just don't imagine that human beings would behave like this towards other human beings.

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 20:08

...but they can, and they do

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 20:08

and some people like to watch it on film, and rewind/FF to the best bits

JessinAvalon · 07/04/2011 20:08

Sorry, Beachcomber - I misread what it was you were looking for.

In terms of the men who engage in this type of abuse, I think there are the psychopaths like Max Hardcore.

And there are others who abdicate all responsibility for their actions by saying that the woman involved has "chosen" to do it. Therefore, if they line up to fuck a woman who is being paid, and who they have told themselves has chosen to be there, they will suppress any conscience nagging that they might have.

An analogy that I'd draw is with men who visit lap dancing clubs. Most men I know who visit lap dancing clubs know deep down that it's exploitative but even my own older brother (depressingly - and boy, did he fall off his pedestal the day that he said this to me) abdicated himself of all responsibility by saying that the dancers "choose" to be there. He gave himself permission to go into a strip club on his stag night and pay a 19 year old girl to dance naked in a room for him and 5 mates for about 20 minutes.

I am glad that Andre and I understand each other. Wink

dittany · 07/04/2011 20:09

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dittany · 07/04/2011 20:13

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StewieGriffinsMom · 07/04/2011 20:36

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K999 · 07/04/2011 20:43

I lurk around these threads and sometimes occasionally post. But for me, I really want to know why some men act this way? Where did it start? Where does it come from? What is it that makes them behave like this? How far back in history do you have to go?

Sorry! Lots of questions there....Smile

InmaculadaConcepcion · 07/04/2011 21:06

This has been a depressingly fascinating thread.

I haven't seen the documentary - and wussily don't want to subject myself to it, having read the interview with the director and the various other links posted here - but I still feel sick about it. And the fact that this type of porn is watched for pleasure....

InmaculadaConcepcion · 07/04/2011 21:07

Hmm...maybe that should have been "depressing and fascinating"...

Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 21:19

This is interesting from Robert Jensen, (he is very good isn't he);

"Meg Baldwin, a feminist law professor at Florida State University who left academic life to run a women?s center, once gave me more insight into this process. Baldwin, who has worked for years with women who are prostituted, said one of the common experiences of those women is coping with the unprovoked rage and violence that johns will direct at them. Baldwin told me that after hearing countless stories about this reaction by men, she concluded the rage was rooted in this self-objectification. She sketched this process:

Men typically go to prostitutes to have a sexual experience without having to engage emotionally. Yet when they are in the sexual situation, they sometimes find themselves having those very same emotional reactions they wanted to avoid, simply because our emotional lives cannot be completely controlled. When they feel those things they wanted to suppress, the johns lash out at the most convenient target -- the women who they believe caused them to feel what they didn?t want to feel.

If Baldwin is right and, based on my own experience, I believe she is we could say that men turn women into objects in order to turn ourselves into objects, so that we can split off emotion from body during sex, in search of a sexual experience in which we don?t have to feel. But because sex is always more than a physical act, men seeking this split-off state often find themselves having strong emotional reactions, which can get channeled into violence and cruelty."

uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/realmenrealchoices.htm

It goes some way to shedding some light on the cruelty aspect.

K999 · 07/04/2011 21:25

Thanks Beachcomber. But if men just want a sexual experience without the emotional attachment, why don't they just masturbate? And what is it that makes them want to avoid the emotional attachment in the first place? Where does that come from?

I would like to know at what point men came to see women as "objects"?

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 21:30

not all men

just this minority of men, who have the ability to switch off heir humanity

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 21:30

their

smallwhitecat · 07/04/2011 21:36

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