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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2001 channel 4 documentary on porn

533 replies

darleneconnor · 04/04/2011 13:00

hcdocu.blogspot.com/

The best anti-porn evidence I've seen.

(Please watch with caution, some scenes are upsetting)

OP posts:
dittany · 07/04/2011 08:40

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dittany · 07/04/2011 08:44

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dittany · 07/04/2011 08:53

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AyeRobot · 07/04/2011 09:12

chuffinheck, are you saying that there are lots of women in porn who are raping and abusing other women? And would continue to do so in the absence of men?

BibiBlocksberg · 07/04/2011 09:20

"The day you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously because they've been offered the chance to abuse another person for free, is the day I'll join the rest of the porn scum on Saturn"

Just had to say how struck I am by the truth of that whole post.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 07/04/2011 11:36

DarleneConor

Thank you for posting the link.
I don't like pornography and it has always made me feel uncomfortable. I have, in the past, tolerated a man's use of it whilst in a relationship.

I never will again.

Dittany, your posts have really helped me to form clear opinions of my own on this subject, particularly your last post wrt women's involvement in porn.

GetOrfMoiLand · 07/04/2011 11:38

"The day you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously because they've been offered the chance to abuse another person for free, is the day I'll join the rest of the porn scum on Saturn."

Excellent post

ShatnersBassoon · 07/04/2011 11:49

"The day you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously because they've been offered the chance to abuse another person for free, is the day I'll join the rest of the porn scum on Saturn."

That has summed up what I've always thought, but been unable to put into words worth listening to. Thanks for the excellent, thought-provoking posts, Dittany.

PeterAndreForPM · 07/04/2011 12:49

< quick wave to Bibi >

< applauds dittany >

BibiBlocksberg · 07/04/2011 13:34

Nice multi tasking there Peter with the waving and applauding :) :)

toddlerwrangler · 07/04/2011 13:43

Oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god :(

Just watched it again since I last saw it ten years ago. Max Hardcore was the thing that stuck in my mind, and to be honest having watched that again I see why.

BUT that god awful agent. The directors (the fat smoking one with creepy hair who was clearly stoned and could barely remember how many men he was about to ask a woman to have sex with), and that AWFUL stuff at the end. Her face when he said 'you ARE going to get spanked' :(

I remain pro choice, I really do. But I actually don't know how some people sleep at night. I am sicked and so, so angry.

AyeRobot · 07/04/2011 13:51

What do you mean by pro choice, toddlerwrangler? Do you mean pro porn?

toddlerwrangler · 07/04/2011 13:56

No.

I am pro choice for someone to enter a sex industry that is well (heavily) regulated, and doesn't sell products that represent the humilation/hurt/control of anyone. So thinking more the Lovers Guide here!

toddlerwrangler · 07/04/2011 13:56

If I meant pro porn, I would have said pro porn.

Deliainthemaking · 07/04/2011 15:21

Chuffinheck- I though I'd address your point

the women here are saying people like MH (psychpaths/other sick things) and basically pimps like richard are the evil men in porn the men who ;run things' you don't as many women in that role,

I'm not say they don't exist but they usually work as a luring device answering to a man IYSWIM.

Something struck me very sad actually

I'm gonna get flamed with the section im in

All the anti porn stuff is great i've read great links posted by people , and I read the great work they one thing struck me, why does no-one care about twinks?
there basically male versions of felicity and often straight skinny teenage boys often younger than her tbh trapped in hotel rooms with an old man raping them, becasue the money is better than straight porn. And most don't even have the advantage of being able to speak english, sorry for going off the feminist tangent I'm not being anti anything.

but yeah chuffinheck I think the problem of women on women explitation is often atthe root of a man anyway.

Deliainthemaking · 07/04/2011 15:22

you mean like karma sutra toddlerwrangler??

MillyR · 07/04/2011 15:29

Delia, I discussed twink porn in the other thread on pornography. A lot of people within the gay community have been discussing the issues in twink porn. There is much more exposure of exploitation and discussion over what to do about it by users than there is between users and producers of straight pornography. The Eastern European production company responsible for a lot of heavily exploitative twink on twink has been the subject of a documentary and a film, and has been heavily boycotted. I cannot think of similar happening with a topic in straight porn, which is astonishing given the much smaller size of the gay community.

I also think you are mis-using the word 'twink' which is most commonly an identity which has nothing to do with pornography, in much the same way that school-girl is a porn genre, but more commonly refers to a particular sort of person in wider society.

Deliainthemaking · 07/04/2011 15:36

I must have missed that Milly I apologise

also twink is used a genre , there little mainstream focus though tbh on either.

obviously feminists concentrate on the exploitation of women/girls
but the men arent bothered either way feels like where do they land.

David51 · 07/04/2011 16:03

"The day you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously because they've been offered the chance to abuse another person for free, is the day I'll join the rest of the porn scum on Saturn."

But apparently one third of visitors to porn websites are women. That's according to the set of statistics that usually get quoted in these debates:

TopTenREVIEWS: Internet pornography statistics

chuffinheck · 07/04/2011 16:17

I despair.....did nobody even bother to read the link ?

I've changed my view, you are all 100% correct. Not one woman anywhere in the world profits by 'managing' women in porn or running companies that produce any of the nastier hard core 'porn'. There are also no women anywhere in the world that like to watch this type of porn, its a purely male market that run the women, profit from the women and watch the end product.

Also (referring to the OP) the doc maker had never heard of MH, had not researched MH and led Felicity into it totally oblivious of what MH stood for and what he did. He never googled MH, never researched MH and espcially never researched the hardcore porn scne in the USA before he went there with Felicity to make this doc.

sits and whistles as the pigs come into land and take breadcrumbs from my hand

Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 16:44

I read your link chuffinheck.

I don't really understand the point that you are trying to make however. The porn industry is male dominated. Of course there are women in it and of course women make money from porn and women watch porn.

The point is though that women are not the driving force behind the industry and women are not the ones doing the raping in the industry. We live in a male dominated society and the porn industry is a result of this male dominated society.

The porn industry is immensely women hating, and you have no proof that the porn industry would continue unchanged (in terms of abuse, destruction and violence) if all the men in it were removed. It is just your unfounded opinion. Porn is not just about money, it is mainly about treating women in an abusive and extremely violent and degrading manner.

It would be interesting to have some detailed information on some of the more powerful women in the porn industry and why they do what they do. I may be wrong but I suspect that many of them are highly damaged individuals who have been damaged by sexual abuse/porn. This is not to say that their actions are excusable but it does put them into a different league to a producer who when asked why he makes violent films showing women being abused says "because it is better than drugs".

I have read the article by the documentary maker and it clearly states that he knew about Max Hardcore. I also fail to see why it it the documentary maker's responsibility that Felicity ended up there - it was her pimp/agent's fault. You seem determined to pin blame on those who are the least responsible for the travesty of human rights that is the porn industry.

Andre1960 · 07/04/2011 16:51

"The day you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously because they've been offered the chance to abuse another person for free, is the day I'll join the rest of the porn scum on Saturn."

For what it's worth, I think this is mostly a silly comment!

However: -

Some women enjoy porn. Many woman are not 'allowed' or don't allow themselves to enjoy porn (read, for example, Nancy Friday). Those who enjoy it probably don't ask too many questions concerning the precise circumstances of its production, any more than the increasing numbers of women profiting from it ask too many questions. Disassociation at each stage!

Female sexuality is, typically, different to men's, however, these things are on a spectrum. I've had sexual relations with women whose interests, tastes and capacity for disassociation when having sex with a real person (me!) have, quite frankly, been frightening (although I'm sure that none of you nice MN ladies with your mumsy, nurturing, good and sensitive natures are like that, lol)! However, not all women use their sexuality in a benign, enlightened and kindly manner for the greater good of their small province of humanity. For some it's about direct gratification; for more, about the gratification of other needs - the use of sexuality instrumentally. Men and women typically disassociate in different ways. It's to do with upbringing, identity, inheritance, cultural and imaginative resources, etc - all, no doubt, reflecting and refracting biological imperatives to some extent. Some is to do with morality. Love fits in somewhere too. Men and women are the joint authors and custodians of this inheritance. It's a kind of dispensation. It's complicated, but that's what it is. In any event, do not wish for the day when you see a group of women lining up naked masturbating furiously in the circumstances described. It may come. What women allow themselves today is very different to what they allowed themselves 30 years ago. Who knows what will happen 30 years hence. I do not see less disassociation over time - I see more.

Although I'm a man and have been accused of being a pornographer, rapist, paedophile, a prick and everything else on this forum, I have a son who will not be like Max Hardcore and a daughter who will not be like Felicity. I cannot equip them to protect themselves if they are trapped in a situation where they are overwhelmed by physical force and cannot fight their way out or find another means of escape. However, such situations are rare. Felicity, for all the trembling chins and expressions of admiration for her bravery in adversity and satisfaction that Max Hardcore is in prison, will probably have a daughter like Felicity. She is a tragic and compromised individual. I haven't read much in posts here from women about how to make their daughters less tragic and compromised. The only solution, it seems, is to send certain pornographers to Saturn

Except, you cannot send people to Saturn. That is a fantasy and another form of disassociation. It's better to understand the problems and find solutions here on earth because that is where the problem is made. Ranting about it, fixing your eyes on only that which you wish to see and expressing shock and outrage is also form of disassociation and does not help. Indeed, it contributes to the problem. In a sense, it is the problem.

dittany · 07/04/2011 16:51

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dittany · 07/04/2011 16:53

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Beachcomber · 07/04/2011 17:02

Oh bloody great - Andre 'it's not those doing the raping and the abusing who are the problem, it is the women who are getting outraged about it who are' has shown up.

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