Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

oh, yes, burlesque is definitely rude and objectifying.
it's completely different from belly dancing.

actually, i can sort of see issues with other reclamation. if you look at reclaiming of words like 'nigger' etc, i get kind of white guilt thing going on.

is it that there are some things which are too awful to contemplate reclaiming (such as pole dancing in my white mc head), but others which may have started from a female-only position can be rightfully reclaimed?

is it the 're' bit? reclaimed, rather than claimed?

but wouldn't 'claiming' rather than 'reclaiming' be more powerful from a feminist pov - that, after, being our remit?

(genuinely curious)

i like maypole dancing.
i think they only stopped that in schools because of "health and safety" concerns (either that, or they couldn't be arsed to drag the maypole out of storage every year)

Yes, it is a bit Marie-Antoinette and her milk-maiding isn't it?

Reclaim pole dancing?
I suppose one of the obvious difficulties that occurs to me is that most of us empowered Earth Mother Nanny Ogg types that are comfortable with our own sexuality and womanhood are just not built for doing the splits upside down whilst clutching a phallic pole.

exaclty - you can't "reclaim" something that you never owned.
you can "claim" it, but who would want to claim poledancing?

oops, x posted hugely and got to the 're' bit all on my lonesome.

so, why wouldn't 'claiming' instead of reclaiming be more powerful?

from a feminist pov?

we're claiming equality.

not reclaiming it.

have we just not got to the point where it is possible yet?

Yeah GC but maybe that's where pole dancing should be considered - you need to be pretty strong & muscular to do it properly with thighs like nutcrackers - you need to be almost "masculine" in other words.

but i was just curious that the same arguments that someone (goblin?) used earlier, about it being something she did at home on her own, or with a group of women, never for an audience, are the saem ads those used on the many many 'i want a pole in my basement' threads... which i hate.

Blimey it's all going on here.

And Mom and Mom are fighting :(

It seems a bit redundant now to explain to David why I'm cross. I'll wait for the promised 'What's wrong with objectification' thread and spend the in between time sharpening my scimitar.

Anyone heard of Rogue Morris?
Female Morris dancers upsetting the Folkdance world by dancing traditionally male dances.
Maypoles are phallic symbols too, but at least that's a mixed sex activity.
Neither poles or burlesque or ballroom or disco appeal to me.
All require dressing up, making up and displaying to an audience.

It was me dancing in the privacy of my own home or with friends.
I like being out of the sexual politics and display category. It's much more relaxing to be of a certain age and confident about being me.

Oooh Tondelayo how was it? I wanted to go but dh convinced me that being kettled would be v bad for dd who is only tiny :(

Link for anyone interested in reading some good stuff on BD

Dittany - I hear you on the imperialist stuff. There has been a history of really not engaging with that stuff. People do more so now though. But it isn't just about prostituted women. That exists. But it is also about very wealthy women, everyday women. It's so broad. I'm trying to think of a parallel but we don't really have one. Maybe just dancing as a whole - 'bellydancing' is a western term for a massive range of dancing. So some of it occurs in exploitative contexts and is one style (e.g prostituted women), some of it occurs in a context that is more complex in terms of whether it is exploitative and is another style (e.g. very well paid in top hotel shows), and some occurs in a non-exploitative context and is another style (e.g families dancing together). (And then there are western styles that appropriate the other styles and create a western version)

Unruly - no kettling where I was - just a happy well-behaved stroll full of lots of people who ordinarily I would assume to be Tory voters. I took DS (2) and he had a good time. Had his own whistle (3rd march so he's now a veteran). I haven't seen any coverage to the contrary yet - I hear that it got a bit tasty outside Topshop.

Eek! When I left this morning the thread was at 5 pages and now it's at 12 with a huge argument in the middle!

@Goblinchild from about 7 pages back - no, this wasn't what I intended to happen at all!

I have been typing on my phone instead of on my laptop which makes articulating my ideas about belly dancing difficult.

Here is what little I knew of belly dancing before posting the thread:

• it is done mainly by women
• it is mainly done by women who are of a larger size and therefore imo it doesn't pander to a male stereotypical ideal of what a woman should look like.
• pregnant women do it, which doesn't fit with the male fantasy of the thin, sexually available barbie doll that they would get in a lap dancing club.
• women of all ages do it, which again differentiates it from the stereotypical fantasy of the young, lithe, women I've seen doing pole/lap dancing.
• there is some dressing up but it doesn't involve removing clothes for sexual stimulation.

Therefore, as I saw it, if a dance form can stick two fingers up at the stereotypical male fantasy of the young, lithe, big breasted, sexually available woman (even if it does involve some wiggling of hips and bust) and a woman can enjoy herself in a sensual way, that's a good thing - or so I thought.

I can't see that belly dancing - as I have described it above - fulfils some sleazy male fantasy in the same way that lap/pole/table dancing does and I don't know of any belly dancing clubs that are aimed at a male clientele.

However, I do remember seeing a belly dancer in a film a couple of years ago having money stuffed into her belt by the partner of a woman whose birthday it was and she wasn't very happy (I won't say the film on here for fear of incurring the wrath of all you good feminists!).

I do see lap/pole/table dancing and "pole fitness" classes as problematic because of their origins. And imo pole fitness classes (I can't even type those words without wanting to say something hugely sarcastic and contemptuous) is definitely mainstreaming the pole dancing industry. One lap dancing club owner in Cornwall has said that he covertly funds pole fitness classes because it mainstreams the activity and makes it acceptable.

However, I am aware that I know little about it and what I do know is based on my personal experiences and my own love of dancing. Some people might say that my Bollywood dance classes are provocative but, again, I don't see it that way. And men and women do Bollywood dance.

It's clear that some women enjoy belly dancing and feel free to do it. I can't see that that's a bad thing.

It seems to me that it depends on context. Pole dancing doesn't though. Dancing around a phallic symbol that was invented as a way of showing off the body will never be acceptable to me.

You threw in a grenade and left?
Did you bring cake to effect a reconciliation?

It isn't done mainly by women of a larger size, nor is being of a larger size something that makes it better. If you want to throw a grenade and run, post that in a belly dance forum. You would be the equivalent of an MRA here

It is indeed accepting (in the main) of women of a variety of sizes and ages.

What grenade have I thrown?

I was referring the goblin's reference which I took to mean the thread in general, e.g. posted a hot topic that generated a lot of responses and a row. I was then being tongue in cheek.

belly dancing as empowering rather than a display of sexual subordinance to the Lusts Of Menz.

I was a bit startled because you are a regular here, so you might have predicted what was going to happen.

Oh god, I'm as confused as ever!

Cake will make things better. Take it from a larger lady.

I honestly didn't think it was going to descend into a 12 page row!

And I'm wondering what I've said that's been provocative. I wrote about what I knew of bd and acknowledged that it's based on limited experience and knowledge.

I was positive about bd because I saw that women of any age or size enjoyed doing it and, to me, any dance that encourages women of any age or size to take part and gives them confidence and is fun is a good thing (caveat - any dance that doesn't involve taking one's clothes off, so I am excluding burlesque and pole/lap dancing here).

Also, any dance which encourages older/larger women to take part and thus sticks two fingers up at the stereotypical fantasy is a good thing (caveat - again, excluding any dance which involves taking one's kit off).

I am still thinking that it's fine as long as it's only in certain contexts. So a bd class aimed at women for women isn't problematic for me but a woman wiggling her boobs in a restaurant for (mostly) male diners would be.

I have a friend who is a staunch feminist and she bellydances, and has done for years. I always presumed that she wouldn't go near it if it was akin to lap/pole dancing or burlesque.