Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

(and i wasn't being deliberately nasty to you then, in case you infer that)
(got the right word that time)

'Nice that you're getting the warm welcome though. People who are nasty to me often do.'

I wonder why? Not intended aggressively or passively or anythingly.
If it is something you feel happens a lot, do you have an answer?
Is it that women don't like conflict and want to be inclusive, or what?

As with anything, there is more than one version of the history of bellydance. A thread on the history of bellydance on a BD forum would get just as heated as this one. So to dismiss a discussion of it in a feminist context in terms of reading the history, is wrong. History is written in a context too.

There is a version that is the women for women, childbirth etc one. This comes (largely) from Rosina-Fawzia B. Al-Rawi's Grandmother's Secrets. OTOH contemporary, highly respected researchers in BD frame it as the western influenced, 20th century, Cairo club scene stuff. On a BD forum, if you said the former you would be heavily criticised.

BD in the UK is largely a women for women, very much about body acceptance, sisterhood, not about titillation thing.

However to think this is all it is is a pretty western-centric view. It is a hell of a lot more complex in the countries of origin, and you do get sleazy clubs with prostituted women dancing. You also get highly wealthy highly respected dancers. And you get women dancing with women for the enjoyment of it. It is a hugely broad thing, with good and bad. And of course, as it exists within the patriarchy (as does everything) it would not be immune from being treated as such.

It is different to lap dancing. It shares some characteristics in some contexts but it is hugely more broad. I think part of the criticism is sustains is because you don't need a man to do it. Ballroom style dancing involves being led round by a man. The woman is being chaperoned in her dancing. BD is a solo dance for a woman. (There are men who dance, and on a BD forum this would be a like a discussion of trans issues on a feminist forum.) So therefore it attracts criticism as woman is doing something that is not necessarily constrained by a man.

i never used the word warmonger.

i said you shouldn't start a crusade-type war on it.
that's different.
(ish)

a warmonger is someone who wants to start a war for the sake of it (like tony blair). you have a cause, and obviously you're not going to get the armour out, but it's all relative, isn't it.

like the words on here, i was originally being metaphorical, but i've lost the will to keep explaining myself and arguing with you.

and my use of the word retaliate meant "replied in order to stick up for my argument" not "fight back =, take that you bitch"

yes, i do, engelbert.
i am just wary about the image that feminism has in general.
It's worrying that the impression is that feminists are all militant, and that we believe that the only way to win is to fight a war.
I do believe in fighting for what i believe in, i just don't think it needs to be done violently.

I'm not sure how much of what i've said actual fighting and how much is using the word fight to mean protest/struggle/stand up

i didn't liken you to crusaders!
i said that you shouldn't start crusader-like wars!

Or it could be a wish to help explain to someone that their opinions of something are not founded on solid facts, and wanting to help them develop a better understanding of it.

On what specifically?
I don't see me belly dancing as feminist, or appealing to men as I dance with other women or on my own. I also do tai chi in a mixed group or alone. Both are for my own delight.
I think that crusade/crusader need to be used carefully with recognition of the context.
I think that some people like an argument to have a way forwards and look to see if there is a possibility of a positive outcome, and that others see that as collaborating and undermining.

'I think education is the single most important thing that we can do to change the world'

I completely agree with this but didn't say it because last time I said that the Feminist board could educate, somewhat like the SN board tries to, I was told that it wasn't the purpose of the Feminist board.
I didn't feel upset, or distresses or attacked. I just thought, and posted,
'Oh, OK then' or something along those lines.

Are the people being friendly regular posters who normally debate with you, or are they infrequent visitors like me?
If the latter, I like to unpick the reasons behind a statement that puzzles me, and then I want to explain my thinking better if I think the person is someone I want to engage in a conversation. Or I decide that we have little or no common ground and leave. Usually politely.
I like discussion and educating, both giving and receiving.
If the friendly posters are regulars, then perhaps on this occasion they think you are too absolute in your judgements and want to give the one being nasty to you the chance to reconsider what she's saying and why.
Of course I could be completely wrong, but you asked my opinion.

I reach an opinion based on what I know. If I learn more, then I may alter my opinion or have it confirmed.

i am certainly not completely educated.
i was formulating an opinion based on observation.