I've got quite a simple question that I just can't answer - why would a woman not be a feminist?

[MarionCole]

Surely everyone wants equality of opportunity, don't they?

Would appreciate the opinions of those feminists far wiser than I.

SGM - I've just ordered that and Reclaiming the F-Word. Am looking forward to getting stuck in.

(Also looking forward to xh's face when he comes round to pick up ds. He asked me last year if I'd 'become a lesbian' because I'd had my hair cropped, become a midwife and had a copy of Ariel Levy's Female Chauvinist Pigs on the shelf!)

VG point Dittany - i guess I just love a lost cause

In all seriousness, although I move in a generally educated, middle-claaarse, reasonably feminism-friendly world (and so I'm hardly being incredibly ground-breaking), saying 'I'm a feminist' makes me feel so POWERFUL.

Before I got more interested in feminism, I was happy enough to support equality for women, but I thought feminism was about progressing women at the expense of men, and I can see lots of cases where some men (such as those who would like to SAH) get a raw deal in the current patriarchal society. Like Someone said (sorry, can't look back to see who it was), I plead the 'what about the menz' case more often than some feminists might like, because I think the war would be won more quickly if we worked from both ends, and showed men how equality benefits everyone.

So, I defined myself more as a 'rights for everyone' person rather than a feminist. Especially as I've seen rights for women improve vastly, and thought that we were pretty much 'there'. But this forum has opened my eyes somewhat as to how you can be a feminist and still want right for others. And how much more still needs to be done for women's rights.

To defend WriterofDreams, I've encountered some nasty attitudes on the feminist board too. Just this week I expressed an opinion which was along the lines of something someone else had already said on the thread, and I got a very snippy post that my question (I didn't ask a question) had already been answered loads of time on the thread if I could be bothered to read it and I got a . So since my view wasn't unique, my post was sigh-worthy and tedious. Really unneccessary nastiness.

And you get man-haters on here too. There's a poster who brings men wanting to stick their dicks into things into every conversation whether it's relevant or not! Does make me laugh.

So I can see why the Feminism topic puts people off if they're dipping a toe in. I realise that the topic, like any other, is full of wildly different people. So opinions are bound to vary.

annie- it was me with the the 'what about the menz' thing

I think men generally would benefit from the sort of changes to society that feminism demands. Which is lovely but not the main purpose of feminism.

The sort of 'what about the menz' plea that pisses me is the one that suggests men are emasculated by being with successful, higher-earning, capable women. Or that we shouldn't demand a better deal in case it puts male noses out of joint.

Ormirian - then we are agreed. I'm all for helping to enable men who would like to be 'more like women' to be so, as this fights the patriarchal stereotype about women's things being of lesser value than men's things, and as such, unmanly. I say half the battle not to get women to be more like men, but to get men to be more like women.

Some feminists would have all women in the business sector, as managers in power suits, making policy and shattering the glass ceiling. Which is all very well and good for those who wish to be in big business. I say as much can be achieved by making it normal and acceptable for men to be SAHDs.

Women don't want to be called feminists because men don't like feminists. Men don't like feminists because feminists challenge the idea that men are more important than women. This makes some men uncomfortable. I don't care. So ha.

Dittany and Alice have it, I think.

The part of feminism I feel uncomfortable with is the part where I know what I'm going to say/think/do/post on FB is going to irritate an awful lot of people. It's going to irritate a lot of men because it challenges their priveleged position. And it's going to irritate a lot of women because they don't want to affiliate themselves with someone who is outspoken and sticks their head above the parapet and who says/does/posts things that makes men not like her.

Thankfully, I don't feel so uncomfortable that it stops me doing/saying/posting those things, and I usually feel a big sense of pride and power when I do!

I think it more about the bad things that feminists have done and associated themselves with there are some feminists that do hate men and preach hate against men and do bad things to further their own agenda. This obviously has a negative impact on the cause as a whole. Also not all women like politics.
I guess it is the same as being a christian some people are hesitant because there are a lot of bad elements to christianity and negagtive things normally get associated with groups quicker than positive things. Some may not know about the feminist movement and are just not informed. I guess the answer is there is no one reason there are many.

what bad things omg?

Yes, what bad things?

while we're waiting shall we make a list of positive things?

Married Women's Property Act
The vote
Women admitted to universities and then to be able to study alongside men; to be able to be awarded degrees for the study they did

I am v. worried about back tracking on maternity leave (but that is govt, not feminists)....

Sorry, tangent. It just makes me so cross. Oh - and on the subject of why are not all women feminists - it makes me even more cross when I hear women defending the abolition/diluting of maternity rights as something that will, in fact, benefit all women in the end.

btw, evening all

making rape in marriage a crime.

I've never met a feminist who did 'bad things' or preached hate against men. I'm genuinely interested to know what these bad things are.

(It's not the same as being a christian, anyway. I'm a feminist and I don't have imaginary friends.)

And, do you know what, women who say they're not feminists? Women hated the feminists who won us all those things - who made it so you can work even if you're married; who made it so your husband doesn't own you; who made it so you can go to university; who made it so you can vote. I bet you're bloody glad they did stand up and make a big fucking fuss now, though!

So why do you complain about feminists now? We are so far from being equal still that it's not funny, and it's bloody annoying when you know that you're fighting a fight for women everywhere, and most of them hate you for it.

When I was 11 and taking on board my militant feminist mother's opinions, without really understanding them, I actually kicked a boy in the balls for being sexist He was in agony - I had no idea it would hurt like that, I'd just overheard random stuff about self defence and got it totally wrong.

It was dreadful, he cried, the entire class visibly backed away from me. I'd always been a 'good girl' until then. People were quite scared of me I think. I apologised till I was blue in the face but the damage was done, though he was really nice about it.

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread but I think it very much depends on:

a) how you define feminism (everyone's interpretation is different) and
b) life experiences, cards you have been dealt with, where you currently are in your life

I see it very much on a similar playing field to a person's politics tbh

You can't possibly be that naive to claim that there are no negative things that have been associated to feminism.

The woman that set up the first dv shelter for women:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

Read about her and you will see some of the negative things associated with feminism.

Some feminists openly preach hate against men which many of you have rightly pointed out in the past on this very forum.

Some feminists say that sahm can't be feminists. Some have said that you can't be a feminist if you have children. Some have said that you can't be a feminist if you are in a partnership with a man.

A lot of feminist organisations opposed opening and funding of male dv shelters.

There are many bad elements to feminism just like any other social, political, religious etc movement.

This isn't about how I or you potray feminism it is about how others do and I beleive a lot of these negatives have made an impact on the women that choose not to be feminists.

If feminism wants to be successful it has to be inclusive and for every woman not a select few that meet a certain criteria.