How are women pre-conceived?

[LadyOfTheManor]

"A woman is not born, but made".

How far does this go? Are we pre-conceived ideologies from being children? (i.e. pink clothing/dolls/being told fairy tales about Princesses and the like).

Is it society that pre-determines a woman's role, or is it the patriarchal values that society clings on to?

How can we fight against this?

Agreed. Society influences construction us and our daughter as to what constitutes are 'good girl/woman' are massive.

I fight it by treating both my children equally, encouraging both to be assertive, independent, caring and considerate - my ideal aspiration being a 'feminine' DS and a 'masculine' DD as hopefully they would be somewhere in the middle!

Personally, I try to live in a way that demonstates independence, not self sacrificial etc...

It is very dificult to unpick though - and it has taken me years to understand just how much I was conditioned I was to be a 'good girl'.. and this was with a hard core feminist mama.

Where does the line get drawn?

Do I wear make up for "myself" and not for a man(when really it's for the ideologies drilled into me "to look nice"). Surely me making that conscious decision counter-acts that? Apparently not.

How much of our identities are removed and replaced with "feminine" idea?

I suppose, if you wanted, you could argue that our childbearing function and ability imbues us with a particularly 'female' and innate desire to conserve and nuture.

I am never sure how far I go with this idea - it changes day to day depending on the situation and who I am talking to. I don't fully disagree (although I think the chaing point may be more at the time of having children than of being born but I really don't know). Anyhow, the reason I often choose not to go along with that arugment is that 'equal but different' can so easily jusify 'unequal'.

Hope that made sense.

Anyway, I think a big thing you can do as a feminist is take yourself out of the race to the bottom of judging other women by policing them for femininity

Well said Engelbert. I think the whole culture of judging women on their appearance - whether it's snide remarks about someone's weight or magazines with big red circles around some sleb's celullite - are a massive part of the problem. It's all about keeping women in our place and making us hate ourselves.

Noten- yes it did.

Dittany- How do you personally fight against it.

I worry that so many things have become "social norms" that I can barely see a line (drawn in the sand) from one day to the next for e.g. my husband asking "what's for supper". Even though he cooks (rarely). This question alone, is a male dominant "allowing" me to make a choice. That patronisation alone gets my back up...but only when I have time to think about it...so much of it goes unnoticed.

Rambling- Yes I agree. It's a documented fact by male critics that women are also women's worst enemy (again I relate to Fairy Tales as that's a subject I'm reading into atm).

But the idea the women are women's enemy surely comes from the male perspective?

I don't agree that we're our own worst enemy. I think all of those vile magazines are very much part of the patriarchy. Wasn't there a thread about exactly this quite recently.

Ah - apologies OP - I think I missed your point. I focused on the 'women are made....' bit.

If that is true about you DP and supper, perhaps start there. Ask him 'what's for supper?' in the same way he'd ask you, and take it from there.

I don't think my desire to wear make up is innate. I see it as a performance of 'feminity'. And I am aware I do it - particularly in the work environment. Outside of work, I rarely wear make up or heels - in work I often do.

That is not to say I don't enjoy it though - often I do. But that doesn't make it any less 'false' for me. Which probably undermines my feminist credentials.. I should go post on the other 'I am a feminst but..' thread.

I like to wear heels...but I've never really examined myself as to "why".

A bit of background: I am fighting my way through a phd, and I have never studied feminism before (throughout university)...I had always dismissed it. However I have been asked to present a piece at an academic conference in a few weeks and it is all about the evolution of women in literature...so I've been brushing up my knowledge, and I think I am becoming a feminist (or at least one in the making)

Making unconscious decisions are part of being dominated by a male society. I choose to wear heals (from time to time) and make up (every day) but I have NEVER examined why. It probably is to do with image...which is quite sad. It's possibly MORE sad that I am not prepared to go bare faced yet.

It's great that you are willing to examine your "why"s, LoTM. Informed choice is always better than going with the default under the guise of "choice".

Yes, I remember my view of the world changing as I slowly got (and still am trying to get) a better understanding of feminism. I remember describing to somebody how it made me see/question everything in a totally new light (there were both good and bad sides to that).

Good luck with the paper - and the PhD LotM .

Here's a "why"...Why are women having to go through the process of searching for an identity, while men don't?

Is it search in vain or is there indeed an identity-detached from the patriarchal system?

Do we have to go through the process of searching for an identity though? I've never felt like I did. Could you be more specific in what you mean by that Lady of the Manor?

I suppose what I mean is, everything I know and am has come from a pre-conceived idea (merely because I have never been challenged about its origins).

To work or to be a SAHM for example, is indeed a choice, but it is a choice given to me by a man-so either way I am buying into their product (if you will).

I think it's attempting to define who I am within society, without using any pre-conceptions about what a woman is and what she does. If you take away all these elements, I really have no idea who I am or what I'm doing.

But can we define who we are without defining what we do?

Sorry this probably reads a bit like a piss take, it isn't supposed to. It's just millions of untamed thoughts running through my brain. Oh, and each sentence is not supposed to read a challenge even though it probably does.

So how would you describe yourself now? (sorry to be nosy) I can come up with the following;

Mother -Who I am or what I do?
Student-
Wife-
Author....etc etc