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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How are women pre-conceived?

51 replies

LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 11:06

"A woman is not born, but made".

How far does this go? Are we pre-conceived ideologies from being children? (i.e. pink clothing/dolls/being told fairy tales about Princesses and the like).

Is it society that pre-determines a woman's role, or is it the patriarchal values that society clings on to?

How can we fight against this?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 15:13

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 15:16

Because I am a pre-conceived idea personified I guess.

THis is the whole point-I'm so conditioned, that what comes naturally to me to identify myself is a set of patriarchal terms.

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 15:24

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 15:28

Hmmm I see what you're getting out. My friends would probably say I'm a good cook along with other stereotypical female-related things. Is that a bad thing?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 15:33

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 16:06

It's far too something for me to fully get to grips with. Perhaps versatile is the word I'm looking for?

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dittany · 16/03/2011 16:17

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 16:26

Yes. However, would we use the same careful wording to describe say, our dhs?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 17:02

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 17:09

When man considers the woman as a weak element and the society deals with her as the main responsible element for deviation, we have to warn her that: "There is a monster who wants to rape her being a powerless creature, and she has to protect herself. This warning does not aim at frightening her, but to inspire her with strength. So, when we tell her: "You have to revolt against seduction, be inflexible in front of man's pressure by respecting yourself, and do not let anybody exploit you", we will be inspiring her not to give up in the battle of conflict, but to stand up in order to face strongly the source of danger.

Shock wow! I cannot believe men people believe that women are indeed held responsible, even by part, for rape.

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 17:13

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 17:16

Why is it that religious teaching promote women to be modest? Is that for their own modesty or is to prevent men from wanting to seduce them...and even so, rape isn't about sex it's about power, so I'm sure it's not just a short skirt that gets their heart rate going..?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 17:25

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LadyOfTheManor · 16/03/2011 17:31

In Christianity also.

Hmmm. Do most feminists feel that religion is a tool used by men to hmm stifle (?) women?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 16/03/2011 17:42

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LadyOfTheManor · 19/03/2011 12:23

Soooo (I'm still writing my paper)...women are conditioned to be "feminine" from birth (pink clothes, dolls etc) but surely men are also conditioned from birth? (blue clothes, garages/cars etc).

When does the point come where women challenge the notion of being made "feminine" and men don't?

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StewieGriffinsMom · 19/03/2011 12:33

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LadyOfTheManor · 19/03/2011 12:36

So why condition us to pink/dolls if it's "bad"? Is it to encourage us to be mothers/domestic slaves etc? Sorry to sound so naive, I'm new to feminism and I'm writing a paper on women being conditioned and how that differs from them being born a specific gender...but I'm getting all tangled up.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 19/03/2011 12:41

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MrIC · 19/03/2011 17:36

a couple of things (sorry I'm aware the thread has moved on somewhat) but...

"girls are encouraged to put others first, to be gentle, to play quietly, to think of their appearance and how they come across to others to a degree that boys often aren't."

actually I (a PFB son) was also encouraged to do these things, to varying degrees of success (fussy about my appearance I ain't! Grin) This probably says very good things about my mother, and may have laid the groundwork for my identifying with feminism later in life. However, my point is:
a) it's not just girls
b) it's probably not all girls - I've met several who didn't have such an upbringing
c) most of these are, to my mind, not bad thing. well, certainly the put others first (to an extent) and be gentle bits. So, is this kind of "training" something you'd want to get rid off?

Re: Islam I've been doing a lot of reading about Islam lately, from various angles (I'd really recommend the Oxford University Press "a Very Short Introduction to the Koran" for anyone wanting a starting point). I'm currently reading Geraldine Brooks Nine Parts of Desire. her view, obviously not one that would be widely shared in the Islamic view, is that the justification for the hijab comes from one line of the Koran, which states that "you must speak to the prophet's wives from behind the curtain" - it's very specific (in who it applies to) but unspecific as to how (what counts as a curtain?).

So in the detail (at least in this respect) Islam is not as restrictive as it is in the application; apparently it was the third Caliph (Omar) who applied many of the restrictions on women that Islam is known for, while many others (child-brides, etc) existed pre-Islam. Not that I'm justifying these practices, but it reinforces the point made above I think about how religious texts are simple another set of tools that are twisted to serve those in power, regardless of what they actually say

InmaculadaConcepcion · 19/03/2011 19:11

Yes, to pick up MrIC's point about religion being a tool of the patriarchy and used to shape and define women, wrt Christianity, it's interesting to read about the Gnostic gospels - the accounts left out of the Bible, although they were written contemporaneously with the accepted gospels. Many of them were far more "pro-women" in tone and in how they described Christ's relationships with the women in his life than the gospels that were chosen for the Bible. There's a theory that the choices of which gospels to include and which to leave out were to a large extent made to chime with the status quo of the time.

Interesting thread, btw.

Xenia · 19/03/2011 19:27

There have even been "studies" (discredited) that showed girls naturally favoured pink then it was discovered it was only in the 1880s or something that there was any cultural suggestion girls like pink and boys blue.

Good luck with the essay.

LadyOfTheManor · 20/03/2011 10:27

Thanks, but what becomes of women who defy the pink clothes and the status quo?

Is it fair to say that perhaps men feel like they have less options now that more are open to women?

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 20/03/2011 11:01

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Xenia · 20/03/2011 12:58

The internet helps. Lots of people work from remote areas and no one has a clue what they look like.