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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Really? Is it just me who doesn't get the Daniel Craig drag thing?

262 replies

Adair · 08/03/2011 18:57

James Bond. Hardly most enlightened character.

Dressing up as 'a woman' which as we all know involves long hair, lipstick, high heels and a dress Hmm.

So an ad for International Womens Day that doesn't actually feature any women (well, the voiceover - but no-one is mentioning that).

Confused
OP posts:
Skifit · 09/03/2011 09:43

Here ,here PIPRABBIT !

elliephant · 09/03/2011 10:01

I didn't find it offensive at all. Surely the drag is being used to say that we should all we treated the same regardless of gender, that with the dress and heels DC is still the same person. The priviliges he has as a man wearing a suit should be also enjoyed if he were a woman wearing a dress. Crude perhaps but simple to communicate.

The choice of these film characters is an effective one.
DC, as JB, is a plate of macho served with a large dollop of misogyny on the side. Who better to choose to put in a dress, used as a symbol of womanhood. JD is a strong, authoritative woman as 'M', and her voice over is compelling.

claig · 09/03/2011 10:45

I didn't like it. I think it is patronising and has undermined the message of International Womens' Day. I agree with sakura that this advert was most probably created by men and not women.

It was International Womens' Day, so what do they do? They do a "what about the menz?", they dress a man up as a woman. It is a pastiche of a woman, it's not about women. It is patronising because I guess it is aimed at certain men who would not listen to the advert if macho James Bond wasn't in it. But those men will have found him dressing as a woman a joke and will not take it seriously anyway. What about the main audience of women and men who would have taken it seriously - they will have been disappointed at the unempowering, defeatist image of a man dressed up as a woman. He even pulls the wig and earrings off after no time at all.

I think it has undermined the seriousness of the message, and has presented a defeatist image. Even the final message of the campaign seems defeatist. It says something like
"Are we equals? We won't stop asking until the answer is yes"

But it should be about more than just to keep asking if we are equal until things eventually change. It should say that we are still not equal, and demanding that things change now, that there is no delay, that laws should be changed now and that inequality should be removed now, not some time in the future.

Twit · 09/03/2011 11:02

I think they got it wrong putting him in drag.
I don't mind him being there, I saw it as him being put on the spot by M.
Maybe more could have been made of that though.

Prolesworth · 09/03/2011 11:08

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claig · 09/03/2011 11:17

I am surprised. The Daily Mails says

"The film is the first to feature Bond which is directed by a woman, Sam Taylor-Wood and is scripted by Jane Goldman."

HerBeX · 09/03/2011 12:17

I don't think trasns-sexuals have a loud voice in the media, but I do think they have a disproportionately loud voice in feminism.

And as Dittany says, they have a louder voice than women, within law and medicine.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the JB film, i posted it on FB because people will watch DC. I thought him dressing up in drag was a commentary about how outrageous it is that women are expected to dress like that if it's not good enough for James Bond, but perhaps that's me jumping the gun! Grin

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:11

Prolesworth, it's not unheard of for women to go along with sexist, patriarchal ideas, or even create them. The patriarchy loves it, and such women get enormous platforms.

Prolesworth · 09/03/2011 13:14

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sakura · 09/03/2011 13:14

"the trans" means "the menz" because of the damage they do to women and feminism by pretending gender and sex are the same

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:17

oh, I see, sorry Prolesworth Blush

God, I am in such a bitter mood. I've finshed reading Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology and I've had just about enough crap to last me a lifetime. I don't think I can carry on with this. Just let them win.

Twit · 09/03/2011 13:26

Could you explain why 'trans' have a disproportionately loud voice in feminism?I see the point about confusing gender with sexuality/sex and how this could be damamging. (I couldn't put it into words that make sense yet though) I'm sorry to be so dim, I'm normally a lurker on the Feminism boards.
(possibly with good reason Grin )

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:27

SSM " I think they are as marginalised, if not more so, than women"

Do you know what percentage of the population women are compared to trans-women? ANd yet nobody's even sure who actually has the most power in media (I mean it could quite easily turn out to be trans women, in spite of their miniscule numbers compared to women, seeing as they definitely have more power in medicine and law than 53% of the population)

Twit · 09/03/2011 13:28

Sakura isn't that what they want, you to become bitter and give in?

Prolesworth · 09/03/2011 13:31

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sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/03/2011 13:32

but a lot of transwomen absolutely do NOT think gender and sex are the same, Sakura, so it seems to me really unfair to posit a big monolithic trans institution like that.
I totally agree that there are huge problems with the way sex changes are viewed by law and medicine but the way they are treated by law and medicine is often precisely NOT what some transpeople want.
for instance: when they are told they can't have a sexchange because they are not dressing in a feminine enough way therefore they can't be serious about being a woman.
I do think a lot of the sensible discussion about trans got lost in that awful thread where we were accused of hate speech for questioning whether a transwoman is really a woman; from what I know of transwomen it is not as simple as either side makes out.

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:36

Quite possibly Prolesworth, and it's also possible that trans-women know they're not women but they have to act in order to get the treatments they want from the medical system. Transsexuals have always had their place in patriarchy but it scares me half to death that they can now erase the M on their birth certificate and change it to an F and be put in the same prison cells as women. So yes, the concept of transsexualism is perfect for patriarchy.

I've come accross the aggressiveness of trans-women online and believe me, they don't even like women deep down. They behave very much like men.

What I don't understand is why they don't join feminists, why do they have to dominate like men?

They've taken over lots of feminist blogs, they've got quite a feminist following, they've divided feminists into us and them (quite a cute divide and rule patriarchal tactic there) and any feminist who says "but hang on a minute I don't think a castrated man has got anything to do with women" is labelled as TRANSPHOBIC and a bigot and silenced. Now the problem I've got is that the only "feminist" issue they're fighting for (pretending that gender are sex are the same) actually works against women and they've dumped all the other important issues that women face.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/03/2011 13:39

Sakura it was Stewie not me who said 'as marginalised if not more so than women' so I'll leave it to her to argue that point - I am not interested in quantifying it but I do think transpeople are marginalised and there is a huge amount of hate speech against them (real hate speech I mean, not just questioning trans philosophy). The amount of street harassment they get, for instance, is enormous.

I think Proles is spot on, that the patriarchy uses trans for its own purposes.

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:39

steth, I have nothing against trans women per se, there are lots of countries where a third gender is created because nobody in their right mind would want to be a woman in those countries.
What I cannot abide is transexxuals changing laws that actually affect women (for example, now being allowed in women's prisons) without even checking with women i.e 50% of the population whether that would be okay or not.

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:39

sorry I meant S G M

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:44

Twit, your post actually helped me, thank you...
Need to take a break, read some chick-lit or something.

Prolesworth · 09/03/2011 13:46

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sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/03/2011 13:46

I agree with you Sakura, in that I have a huge problem with having womanhood defined by transwomen; my position about what makes a man/woman is probably that I don't actually know but I am certain it has a lot to do with lived experience. The idea of being forced by law to accept someone else's definition bugs me no end.

However, I am also very unhappy with some of the generalisations about trans in Beauty and Misogyny; I have known several transpeople in my time and they do not fit into many of those boxes. I totally don't buy the idea that transwomen in general hate women: some do, I am sure, just like some feminists probably actually do hate men. But none of the ones I know.

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:49

I agree with your entire last post SSM, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like knowing you simply are not able to play the game as one of the "boys" , but they shoot themselves in the foot because whenever women try to define their reality, trans women (the online ones at least) lump feminists into the same group as the men who go about bashing and killing transsexuals. I mean, the lack of integrity here is astounding.

sakura · 09/03/2011 13:53

I'm settling for a Glee repeat Proleworth. Laters...

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