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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Men in a van

246 replies

alphamummy · 03/03/2011 22:01

I'm unsure why this bothered me so much, i'm not upset more annoyed that it happened.

Sorry i'll explain, i was walking on main road to playgroup 10am ish, with my 2 children in double buggy. I was dressed in jeans, winter coat and walking boots( not that it should matter at all what i had on). A van drove passed me pipped their horn and the driver shouted out of the window at me " fat split arse" and the bloke in the back also shouted "show us your fanny".

Why would you behave like that? I had my children with me.

I think its the fact that they pipped to get my attention to shout abuse at me.

OP posts:
FamilyCircus · 06/03/2011 19:34

I would feel exactly the same if I were you. I'm sorry you had to go through that horrible experience in the first place, but to then have a police officer tell you it was just lads having a laugh ...

Fucking hell, surely that is not legal. You can't go around threatening to rape someone. But, apparently you can!

Takes the bloody piss doesn't it?

HerBeX · 06/03/2011 20:25

Comealongpond I was going to suggest that you print out the "small assaults" thread for your policeman friend to read but have just read that you're not friends with him anymore... can't say I blame you

Janos · 06/03/2011 20:32

Sorry this happened to you alphamummy.

So, so many women have had this experience and are made to feel like it's not a big deal.

Bunch of arseholes, really.

The low level contempt with which so many women are treated pisses me off to high heaven.

ensure · 06/03/2011 21:29

So sorry you had this happen OP, and others.

My first day at high school, I went back to my classroom alone at the end of the day as I had forgotten my umbrella.
An older boy stood with his friends in the corridor around me, he said he wanted to "screw" me. And they all laughed.
I hit him as hard as I could in the face with my lunch box and ran. There was blood. I expected repercussions but they never came. Probably they didn't actually see what I looked like. I was just any girl.

After years of this sort of behaviour from certain types of men, although they all deserve a whack with a lunch box imo, I have sadly learnt the best response to avoid further unpleasantness is to keep your head down and keep walking. Doesn't always work, but it is safest.

Funnily enough my ex knew exactly what this feeling was like, having spent time as an adolescent in some Arab countries where apparently young boys are fair game too for unwanted groping, propositioning, lewd comments in the street etc. Perhaps because women aren't as visible in society there sometimes?

AyeRobot · 06/03/2011 21:59

Sorry to hear all of these stories. Who the fuck do these men think they are?

Just read an article about street harassment and a website ( Hollaback where you can share your stories if you like.

hogsback · 06/03/2011 22:12

OP The next time it happens take the registration number, the make and colour of the van, and call 999 immediately. Tell them that you have had threatening comments of a sexual nature made to you and your children, and that you felt physically threatened. The van will get tugged by an area car and even if nothing comes of it, it might make them think twice the next time.

AnnVeronica · 06/03/2011 22:27

claig thank you :)

This thread has got me really fired up. I'm taking a zero tolerance stance from now on. Whether it's towards me personally, or other women.

HerBeX · 06/03/2011 22:52

Actually we all need to log these incidents on hollaback as well.

And also, as many real details as possible, like car numbers.

If men thought that their pictures would come up on Youtube where their friends and family and women they fancied, might stumble across them, I think that would do an awful lot to shut them the fuck up already.

StayFrosty · 06/03/2011 23:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeX · 06/03/2011 23:52

SF - I always try and make sure I have my ipod/ phone with camera as well.

StayFrosty · 07/03/2011 00:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hester · 07/03/2011 00:24

I was talking about street harassment with my (female) dp earlier, and we were both saying how it almost never happens to us anymore, because we're in our 40s and becoming completely invisible in public spaces.

She said she misses the affirmation of her attractiveness, and I do understand that - but I don't share it. I feel intensely relieved that I can walk down the street minding my business, and not being constantly invaded. I love it that I don't have to do that quick kind of screw-up of courage as I leave the house, that getting prepared to be scrutinised and judged, that quick thinking about when it is safe to retaliate and when you have to placate, however humiliating, because there is a real threat of violence.

It is very nice knowing that you are considered good-looking. And women often tell themselves that this is what street harassment is about, trying to glean some self-esteem from a very nasty endemic of apparently socially acceptable oppression and abuse.

I have two small daughters and I hate knowing that within a few years they will be dealing with this.

Miss it? Never, ever, ever. I'm so sorry for all the women on this thread who are still going through it.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 07/03/2011 07:07

I had a friend who attracted a lot of this kind of attention and she liked it.
She couldn't see that it was demeaning and objectifying, even if it made her feel attractive.

Anyway, I wave my little finger meaningfully at all arseholes who indulge in this type of thoughtlessly puerile and intimidating behaviour.
Two wrongs don't make a right etc., but it makes me feel slightly better.

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 09:36

hester I realised that the first time I was pregnant, that when I was visibly pregnant, I felt so much more relaxed and secure. No shouts or catcalls, and even just the removal of the gaze of men generally was terribly liberating. It's a funny idea that women between the ages of about 13 and 35 are watched wherever they go, and you're always subconsciously aware of it. When it went it was the most wonderful feeling. I felt a lot safer as well, walking after dark.

Appalling really.

Personally I don't understand how women take it as a compliment, but fair enough if that's how they feel. I always felt a sense of utter outrage - who the fuck does he think he is to say/shout that at me? What gives him the right?

I would imagine as well that those who take it as a compliment wouldn't take "I'm going to rape you" and the like as a compliment. TBH the stuff at the "lower" end of the scale (whistling and beeping) didn't happen so much as the stuff which was more aggressive. I always felt outraged but also a bit frightened TBH by a group of adult men shouting especially when I was young. Would the women who find it flattering really mind it stopping if it meant that the aggressive stuff stopped and that young girls were no longer subjected to it I wonder.

The builder people did a thing in the 80s/90s where their code of practice was that they're not supposed to wolf whistle or shout stuff and it doesn't happen so much from them any more from what I can see. I used to hate walking past building sites. I haven't heard of any campaigns from women to reverse their code AFAIK.

MarshaBrady · 07/03/2011 09:46

I was still called at when pg! And some builders shouted out to me the other day and I muttered 'isn't that illegal' Hmm which did sod all of course.

Not horrible stuff at all (I still really feel for those who had awful stuff), but still I like to walk around in a zen like vagueness and am annoyed that I am interrupted.

StayFrosty I am so angry for you, how dare they ignore you and apologise to your boyfriend.

ah I did do feminist studies at university and I am so glad. It gave me and my friends the tools and understanding even if we still felt powerless.

I like the iphone photo idea.

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 09:51

SF pissed off for you. I found that sticking my enormous belly out in this neck of the woods worked wonders Grin

Question:

Is it illegal for men to shout abuse at women on the street? If it is illegal, is there a line? Is whistling OK but saying "I'm going to rape you" not? Where does "show us your tits" fall? Does it make a difference if they are aggressive / intimidating or not? (I would argue that this is almost always aggressive behaviour).

I am sure that tooting your horn at people is a contravention of the highway code Grin

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 09:51

Sorry not SF. marsha, don't know what happened there!

HerBeX · 07/03/2011 10:16

I think it is technically illegal, but not sure what offence it is.

Probably a public order offence, but certainly "I'm going to rape you" would be threatening behaviour wouldnt' it.

Try getting the police to investigate though... Hmm

AyeRobot · 07/03/2011 10:31

AliceWorld - sorry, I didn't see you'd already linked to Hollaback. The red mist came down when I was reading the article about it.

ednurse · 07/03/2011 11:25

when I was nannying in Surrey I always got beeped/shouted at (give us your number sexy, that kind of thing)

now I'm back in Essex, sans pushchair....not so much.

hogsback · 07/03/2011 12:16

SardineQueen: Shouting abusive comments at people is a section 5 public order offence:

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he?

(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

The threat to rape described above is much more serious and would probably constitute a common assault.

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 12:47

So if I'm walking down the street and a man shouts "get your tits out" then he is committing a crime? Good.

Shame that yelling "gissa smile love" at 13 year olds presumably isn't though.

What about "oi sexy"? If the recipient says she found it demeaning and intimidating would that make it a crime?

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 12:49

hogsback what do you think would happen if women suddenly all started reporting this stuff? Do you think it would force the authorities to take it seriously?

I rang up the police about a couple of random phone calls I had once and they said there was nothing they could do. Also weren't very interested in the man wanking at me on the tube Sad

hogsback · 07/03/2011 13:38

SardineQueen: If women started calling this in en masse the police would have no choice but to start taking it seriously. The alternative is private prosecutions but you need money and dedication for that.

SardineQueen · 07/03/2011 13:42

So that's what we need to do then?

Seriously, that's what we need to do to get this pushed up the agenda. If these things start costing time and money, then there will be no choice but to sort it out.