An 'interesting' conversation with my MIL about rape

[thefinerthingsinlife]

I am shocked that a woman who is intellegent believes the rape myths put forward for example "well there are women who go out for a good time" "look at all those women who falsely accuse men of rape" "well if she's drunk what does she expect".

After explain why these views are all aiding rapists and why the patriarchy promote this myths she seem top understand.

But how the hell are we meant to challenge these view when the patriarchy have made these views so 'believable'

omg stop referring to this as unusual.

It is not unusual for juries to let really obvious rapists go free.

nearly half of rapes that get to court, do not end in conviction. Even if you believe that all 4% of allegations which are false, make it to court (unlikely), that still means that well over 40% of rapists are let off.

There was a case described by an MNer recently which actually was a clssic stranger rape - her DD was pulled down a dark alley and anally raped. The rapist claimed that she begged him for it and he reluctantly agreed. The jury believed him, or at least decided that if he wasn't telling the truth, he was too nice versus her, to pay the price for his violence.

Yes Lenin you're right, that's at the absolute crux of it.

BTW, has anyone else seen this?

Fascinating and imo really well constructed film (using a real courtroom and court process around a fictional rape case) that really exposes these issues.

Sue Lawley, it might help to look at Yes Means Yes Blog Lots of posts on there really helped me put all of this into context. This one is interesting (and shocking)

BoffinMum, I do understand what you are saying and I do think that being streetwise is a great message to teach our children. I just don't think having a generalised fear of stranger rape does anything other than restrict us, though. I think teaching about boundary setting and bodily integrity on a one to one level is much more useful.

OMG - consent is not a blurred line, though. I just don't believe that men are so clueless as to have a big problem with understanding if a woman wants to have sex with them. If in doubt, do nowt seems a sensible option. What's the worst that can happen if a man misunderstands and doesn't have sex? So, in terms of trials, I do not understand why consent becomes a blurry issue for juries. Like that friend of Jack Tweed who thought he'd got consent to stick his penis in the victim's mouth whilst she said that she was being raped by Jack Tweed because of the look she gave him. Just a look. Not a nod or anything, a look. And the jury believed him and he went free. So, yes, he should have been educated to get consent. But then you get all the wannabees crying because they think they have to get a form signed in triplicate. How do you educate them so that they will listen?

omg, this isn't the only similar case I have read about where a jury acquited despite the evidence of the accused being consistent with raping the victim.

Someone on the other thread mentioned the case of the ex celebrity BB contestent's partner's mate. When asked how he knew she was consenting he said she looked at him. Does that mean that everytime I look at a man I implicitly consent to sex. I look at men every day, I don't consent to sex with them. If looking at men equals consent, rape is nearly impossible given that most victims will look at their rapists at some point. Can rape only happen if you are taken from behind in a dark alleyway? It appears that jury thought so. But they must be another freak case, mustn't they?

This idea of insansity due to excess alcohol is interesting. Maybe it's true that the jury thought it was the case. Again, for how many crimes are the accused excused because of their alcohol consuption? If he'd got into a fight outside a pub they wouldn't have let him off so easily.

Women don't report rape because they know rapists get away with it. Those that don't know that will soon find out. Probably when the CPS drops their case due to lack of evidence.

I have to disagree with you notjust. I didn't know that you could be prosecuted with rape for sleeping with a drunk woman with her consent even if it is your sexual partner you can still be taken to court because she wasn't of clear mind and I am sure many people don't including women. I only know about it because I educated myself.

herbex I refer to this case as unusual as I believe this is the first of its kind. If it is then it is unusual.

Kathey Lette got to serve on another freak jury.

She talks here about when she sat on a jury where Kirk Reid, a serial rapist, was acquitted of a sexual assualt on a woman in an alleyway. She fought him and he ran away into the arms of a police officer. Again, more than one witness, a scenario where consent is unlikely and the jury still let him off.

There's a lot of freak juries out there. I wouldn't fancy my chances.

omg, I agree with you that not many people know what rape is. Judges should direct juries accordingly and ensure that they do know that the women needs to give consent and what consent is. I don't think they are very good at it at the moment. I suspect that the number of freak juries might come down if judges were better at directing them.

Well, yes, technically it is a crime.....

I think I'm just frustrated and puzzled about the confusion around consent, because it is generally not complicated. Is it? Maybe it is if the man is shit at sex and can't tell if a woman is enthusiastic or not. (not directed at you!)

notjustapot, that second link is awesome. And shocking. And extremely convincing.

Notjustapot, I think that there is possibly confusion around consent, as OMG has said, even though we think it should be clear, because we very rarely talk to young people explicitly about rape. If (as that link you posted highlights) rapists are thought of in the general population as nasty strangers that jump out and violently attack women, then I can understand how some people don't ever get around to interrogating where the line is drawn, we just assume it's something we know. As I've said, when I was growing up, no-one explicitly said 'THIS is consent. THIS is not consent' when actually that would have been really useful information.

I agree an adult male should know what consent is. I do think it's possible that a teenager might not appreciate when ardent turns into bullying or that that equals rape. (I also think very strongly that teenagers should know this, obviously. But how can they if they don't get taught those boundaries? As your link shows, our culture is shit at acknowledging them)

More and more I think what is incredible, is that most men are not rapists.

Given that our culture encourages them to be and for centuries has educated them that they have a massive entitlement to help themselves to women's bodies whether women want them to or not, it is actually astounding that in most cases, their humanity has emerged unscathed and most of them don't turn out rapists, not because of our cultural messages, but in spite of them. It says masses about their potential if they weren't constantly subjected to the corrupting messages of the patriarchy. Imagine how great they'd be.

Until we get rid of the idea that women are a jar of sweeties and men are small children ("Well, if you don't want him to touch, put it where he can't see it!") rape will continue.

Well said HerBeX.