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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

An 'interesting' conversation with my MIL about rape

115 replies

thefinerthingsinlife · 26/02/2011 17:27

I am shocked that a woman who is intellegent believes the rape myths put forward for example "well there are women who go out for a good time" "look at all those women who falsely accuse men of rape" "well if she's drunk what does she expect".

After explain why these views are all aiding rapists and why the patriarchy promote this myths she seem top understand.

But how the hell are we meant to challenge these view when the patriarchy have made these views so 'believable'

OP posts:

HerBeX · 26/02/2011 22:06

And also from my POV, the point of arguing about it is that I learn and that sometimes my viewpoints are challenged and I change my mind about something based on wht someone oposts or links to. And if I don't, it's because my arguments have been really challenged and I've had to argue my case properly and find more evidence for what I believe to be true.

BoffinMum · 26/02/2011 22:14

I don't mind changing my mind, I do all the time, I just feel, well, sat on somehow here. Anyway, I'm off. Bye for now.

IFeelSueLawley · 26/02/2011 22:19

I am going to put myself out there and ask a question and I am willing to be educated as I really don't understand fully. I am new to this and so you may need to be basic.
I get that it is never the woman's fault.
I am confused about the advice that Boffin gave to her daughter and why some of the posters aren't happy with it.
I know that even though I don't go to the pub or wander the streets at night on my own, there is still a chance I could be raped because I am a woman and if a man is a rpaist and has a chance and wants to, then it could happen.
But, and here is my query. That rape is a crime and as like any other crime, there are steps that people make to try and reduce that crime happening to them, then thinking about these steps in relation to rape would seem sensible to me.
Please help me understand. I am open.

IFeelSueLawley · 26/02/2011 22:21

Oh the question- What is wrong with offering advice on keeping safe as you would with sons and daughters re any crime?

Drizzela · 26/02/2011 22:24

So what is the answer regarding what we teach our daughters?

I HATE the teachings that they have to behave in this way or that way to avoid being raped. Its like we teach them not to run out in front of cars else they'll get run over and not to dress like 'slappers' else they'll get raped as though they are the same principal.

But in a society where so many men beleive women who behave in a certain way 'deserve it' surely we need to protect our daughters by guiding them away from mischief... I honestly would like some guidence here?

Original poster

thefinerthingsinlife · 26/02/2011 22:26

Right you will have to bare with me because i'm still quite new to this.

Because the advice should be at men not to rape. Women can not stop rape, only man can. So advice on keeping safe is kind of irrelevant because the majority of rapes are committed by someone you know.

Hope this helps

OP posts:

AliceWorld · 26/02/2011 22:26

It's because telling women to take precautions creates a culture where people see it as their role to not be raped. Which then permeates attitudes to rape that feed not being believed, not being taken seriously, blaming yourself, and ultimately not convicting rapists. It creates a series of myths about rape, that people believe to be true, and then act on when responding to rape. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I've explained that so clearly.

karmakameleon · 26/02/2011 22:27

Sue, if you are raped, it's most likely going to be by someone you know and probably in your own home. The only way to stay completely safe isn't to not go out late at night on your own or to avoid alcohol and be careful what you wear. The best way to avoid rape is not to be alone at home with your partner. Giving people that advice to avoid rape is just madness in so many ways.

Original poster

thefinerthingsinlife · 26/02/2011 22:28

Drizella have a look at a the link that Quodlibet posted ate 20:44:35 and that should help explain it

OP posts:

Drizzela · 26/02/2011 22:28

Sue Lawley - someone more educated will come along in a moment but I think in basic terms it is because the responsibilty is then placed on the woman to avoid the rapist as though he were a natural disaster or a busy road rather than a person who is responsible for his own evil actions... if that makes any sense. As in - we should be teaching boys to respect women and not rape them rather than teach girls how to avoid the rape...

But the question I posed above shows I'm not all that together about the whole thing either

AliceWorld · 26/02/2011 22:30

It's not the way women behave though. It's the man being a rapist. My rapes happened with an ex. All the telling me not to dress provocatively, drink too much, give off signals, get in a car et al would not have stopped that happening. Being told that rape was not just something that happens from a stranger in an alley would have been more effective. Making rape seem as if it is just stranger rape, that can be prevented by the way you behave, imo masks the more usual rape that is someone you know.

LadyBiscuit · 26/02/2011 22:30

SueLawley - because rape isn't like most crimes. If you look at the list that Boffin made, there are some dangerous assumptions which put all the onus on the woman:

I tell my DD that if she gets completely pissed and out of control, there is a risk something bad will happen to her

if she flirts with relative strangers she has to be prepared to manoeuvre out of the situation as quickly as she went into it

if she dresses like a slapper then a certain kind of bloke will think he can take advantage, so to be prepared for hassle if necessary

Rapists may well take advantage of women who are 'completely pissed' or women who are 'dressed like a slapper'.

They also rape women who aren't drunk and those who are dressed very soberly. If you are raped, it is not your fault . And it doesn't matter if you were wearing a nun's habit or fishnets and no skirt. You are still not inviting men to rape you.

IFeelSueLawley · 26/02/2011 22:41

I get the normal assumptions don't apply and that the crime is different to property crime and that it happens more often by someone you know.
Where does this leave me because horrible stuff still happens and I suppose I want to have some hope but now I am just feeling despair.
So locking houses, attack alarms, driving to the speed limit, trusting my husband, all that stuff we do to try and avoid danger is fake? Man I think my head might explode! There is nothing I can do?

IFeelSueLawley · 26/02/2011 22:42

(Re speed limit I was thinking od drunk drivers ploughing into me if I was driving to be safe and locking houses to help prevent theft.)

Drizzela · 26/02/2011 22:43

That link was great. Thanks.

LadyBiscuit · 26/02/2011 22:47

No, actually I don't think there is an awful lot you can do to avoid rape. Unless you don't leave the house or trust any man to be alone with you. That's why educating men is critical. It isn't about teaching women how to avoid rape. It's about teaching men to stop raping.

Original poster

thefinerthingsinlife · 26/02/2011 22:48

Sadly Lady biscuit is right

OP posts:

Omg20 · 26/02/2011 22:50

I can't say whether there are more cases or not where this has happened but I do no believe I am being naive people should not be discouraged from seeking justice because there are a few unexplainable cases. I know I wouldn't. As I said this case is very unusual and rare and does not happen in every case. Most cases that make it to court with charges of rape result in convictions that is a fact. This is one of the things that I beleive should be taught in school and I do not believe for one second that all juries are biased towards victims. The problem with rape cases is that it is one of the only crimes that has to have belief and doubt in it due to lack of physical evidence. Exactly the same as any other crime if there is no physical evidence it is hard to prove. Eye witness testimony is very rarely accepted as the sole form of evidence in any crime and is scrutinised very heavily. This is why we see a lot more violent rape cases convicted than any other. I can't really see a way around that either. If only we had a 100% accurate lie detector every criminal would be convicted.

Side note: I can't explain the unusual case and what the jury were thinking in that one and you can't say this is what is going to happen to every rape case or even ever again. The only thing I can think of is that the jury found him not guilty with a reason of insanity due to excess alcohol. We need to get the whole ruling to get the correct reasoning behind the ruling.

IFeelSueLawley · 26/02/2011 22:52

Ok. Thank you for answering. Not sure what to think now. This is what having a set of beliefs being blown out of the water feels like.
What do I replace it with? I think I am going to have to think about all of this a bit more.
Off to change bed as son has had an accident. Hoping I won't think too much and will actually get some sleep.

Original poster

thefinerthingsinlife · 26/02/2011 22:54

That's how I felt to start with and I got quite upset about it all but I started reading up around the subjects and now I am very passionate about it. Night, hope you do sleep well

OP posts:

Omg20 · 26/02/2011 22:59

I thought I would mention that I was talking about not drinking to much alcohol as this impairs your judgement and will not help if you try to defend yourself. Although I think that was made clear in my posts.

Omg20 · 26/02/2011 23:10

I also think it could have something to do with intent. You have to intend to rape or steal to be prosecuted as far as I am aware.

Unrulysun · 26/02/2011 23:14

What an amazing link. Have e-mailed it to myself for distribution to everyone I know! Thanks!

Quodlibet · 26/02/2011 23:15

IFeelSueLawley (great name btw), I think there are things you can replace the belief with, and I do think there are proactive things you can do, if not to avoid someone trying to rape you, then to avoid them being successful in doing so.

That's why what Fugitivus says in the blog post I posted earlier rings a bell with me. We can learn as women not to be apologetic about having our boundaries crossed, about asserting ourselves, about trusting our 'creep' radars and getting ourselves out of situations in which we are not comfortable as quickly as we can. We can teach our daughters what constitutes totally unacceptable behaviour in a relationship, and what some of the warning signs of that behaviour are, so that we are less likely to end up with manipulative or abusive partners.

Importantly for me, being able to trust trustable men is a really important and useful skill to and something we should be doing. Most men (I believe) are not rapists or potential rapists. We have the power as women and mothers to decrease the proportion of rapists in every successive generation via the values we propagate and the messages we instill in children and the equal, trustworthy, loving relationships we model between men and women.

I don't think any of this means that locking your house/carrying an alarm/trusting your husband/driving to the speed limit are not good ideas too.

Quodlibet · 26/02/2011 23:19

OMG, as long as some men don't understand that unless they have obtained clear consent, it's rape, they could still argue that 'I didn't intend to rape her, I just thought she wanted to have sex with me.'

Actually (as I understand it) the laws re theft are far more clearly defined. I could not intend to steal from HRMC, but if I've misunderstood the tax laws and underpaid my tax, I can still be prosecuted for it.

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