An 'interesting' conversation with my MIL about rape

[thefinerthingsinlife]

I am shocked that a woman who is intellegent believes the rape myths put forward for example "well there are women who go out for a good time" "look at all those women who falsely accuse men of rape" "well if she's drunk what does she expect".

After explain why these views are all aiding rapists and why the patriarchy promote this myths she seem top understand.

But how the hell are we meant to challenge these view when the patriarchy have made these views so 'believable'

As I said I looked at this report after you(I think it was you) pointed it out to me and it looked pretty much like the way foward and the reponse from the government was quite positive. I just think that if the victims were encouraged more and that the definition of rape was more widely taught in schools maybe as part of learning for life and work. Not sure if it is even part of a subject in school atm.

One theory as to 'why' women believe these myths, is that if you, as a woman, believe that rape victim are tartily dressed/behave provocatively/pissed out of their minds then you, a women who does not to these things, are protected from ever being raped. It's a mental defence against what is a very frightening fact.

We all know, and many women find out, that there is no special 'protection' against being raped (other than physical defence which isn't always possible)if you are with a man who decides to rape you. Men rape OAPs, children, their relatives, teetotallers, strangers on the street, women they date, longstanding friends, colleagues, sex workers, health professionals - every category you can think of.

I think it's quite a persuasive theory, although I also blame the internalised misogyny which we all carry around in our heads, and which allows so many rape victims to blame themselves too.

Sorry I should have noted that my last post was directed at herbex.

Can't argue with you about the need to teach what rape is in schools OMG.

I think there is some good work being done about this, but of course with all the cuts in education, PHSE, SEAL, extended schools, etc., all those bits of expertise coming into schools are going to be gone again.

Omg - do you understand that most women who have been raped won't tell anyone, let alone the police? There was a huge thread on here a few months ago that was a damning indictment of the true story of rape and rape reporting in this country.

I tell my DD that if she gets completely pissed and out of control, there is a risk something bad will happen to her, if she flirts with relative strangers she has to be prepared to manoeuvre out of the situation as quickly as she went into it, and if she dresses like a slapper then a certain kind of bloke will think he can take advantage, so to be prepared for hassle if necessary. I think you need to be pragmatic and realise there are nasty pieces of work out there who hate women and will harm them.

And if she dresses like a slapper (whatever that might mean) and gets raped, will you blame her, BoffinMum?

I don't use words like slapper around my children because I don't want them to think it's OK to dehumanise women in this way.

It's partly that dehumanisation, whcih leads juries and most people, to write off the pain of rape as not being really important.

Notjust

I completely understand and realise that. This is why i believe that there should be more education on the definition of rape etc. in schools. In the end every person male or female would know exactly what is and isn't rape or sexual assault and also be educated on how to proceed with it and get support of you are a victim and this would also educate any possible offenders.

I have to say that I also think that potential victims should be educated on how to make themselves less likely to be a victim of this crime. Like keeping your head about you and not drinking to much just like with any other crime. we are constantly advised on how to make our houses less likely to be targeted by burglars and many other things like muggings and assaults however I have to say straight from the outset I do not blame the victim if they are the target of crime.

No, my inclination would probably be to drive over the perpetrator and leave him for dead, but in real life I would just make sure the case came to court and he came to justice.

I would define slapper as a word used by these very men to justify their attacks (context being all).

Then Boffin you are supporting the problem.

"if she flirts with relative strangers she has to be prepared to manoeuvre out of the situation as quickly as she went into it" who defines flirting? because I'm damm sure that what she sees as just having a chat a potential rapist will see as a green light. So will you tell her if she speaks to a man she has to be careful??

"if she dresses like a slapper then a certain kind of bloke will think he can take advantage, so to be prepared for hassle if necessary" WHY? 1) the word slapper is a misognist word used to degrade women and 2) She should be able to wear whatever she likes without fear of being raped/ groped/ leered at. She should not have to dress a certain way to protect herself. Furthermore you can be raped wearing joggers and a tee, there isn't a dress-code for it!

The problem is Boffinmum, that in real life the case would probably not come to court and get justice.

6% conviction rate on reported rapes.

Oh BM I've NEVER met a woman who didnlt know that - it is drummed into us implicitly and explicitly by a lifetime of messages that we are the gatekeepers, and if men 'gain access', it is our fault.

Your daughter knows how to keep herself as safe as she can - you don't have to drum the old tropes in there as well.

I know this has been posted before but I found this incredibly illuminating in terms of how women are socially taught to be intimidated/compliant/in danger and why socially women are blamed for their own rapes: here

OMG and others talking about how we can educate young people, I think that recognising how deeply our ingrained ideas permeate our physical and verbal language is a really important.

For me, the ideas expressed in this blog also explain your MIL's internalisation of these poisonous ideas, OP.

But omg20 the only way women can avoid being a victim of this crime, is not to be in the unescorted company of a rapist.

And since rapists don't have big R's tattooed on their foreheads, unless women literally never allow themselves to be alone with a man, they can be the victim of this crime.

But if you advise them as such, you are implying that every man is a rapist and should be treated as such, in order to avoid rape.

Which obviously isn't proportionate, because most men aren't rapists.

I am not saying it's her fault any more than I would tell my sons it was their fault if they were knifed on the way home from the pub. I just think it's prudent to avoid nutters and difficult situations where possible. Of course I wish we could all walk down the street at night and be completely respected all the time, but the world is a darker place than that, and underneath, mankind is pretty feral.

I had heard the 6% statistic and it makes me very angry, by the way.

Equally I can't imagine a situation where I would think it was my fault if something like that happened to me, so I don't think this applies to all women any more than saying all men are potential rapists.

Years ago, I shared a flat with a couple of blokes and we used to go clubbing together with his friends - me and 3 men.

I would get hopelessly, paralytically drunk. They would carry me home. Not once did any of them rape me. Because none of them were rapists. It didn't matter how drunk I got, how paralytic I was, I was never in any more danger at the end of the evening than at the beginning because my friends were not rapists and it is very odd, to imagine that they would suddenly become rapists just by me being paralytic - like that would somehow unleash their inner rapist.

Women are only in danger when they are drunk - or when they are sober - if the man they are in company with, is a rapist.

That simply cannot be stressed enough.

I agree that the education needs to be more aimed at boys, not girls. As a woman, I know that I received some (entirely useless) rape avoidance advice. Do boys ever get taught how they should avoid becoming rapists? I have no idea.

FWIW that needs to go beyond 'no means no', it has to be 'unless you have active consent then it's no'.

I've found that to be a bit of a controversial POV on MN which is hugely depressing to me.

But BM, will you tell your DS never to walk alone late at night because it will expose him to potential muggers/ knife attackers?

I am not saying that at all herbex this is why I specifically said about alcohol. We all know that it is the cause of many many crimes and why a lot of victims of crime can't protect themselves properly. When I go out for the night I alway s keep a clear head. I never drink enough alcohol to leave me vulnerable to attack. I have extreme paranoia but I think this is to do with my history which I have posted about on some threads. I never go anywhere I don't know how to get out of and I do not trust people that I do not know until I get to know a bit more about them. I think that is to extreme for most people but at things as simple as not drinking to much will help you defend yourself.

But the thing is, BoffinMum, rapists don't rape because you look too sexy and they can't control themselves. And most rapists aren't freaky randoms - don't we all avoid those in the main? It's more likely that a woman is raped by someone she knows. So all the safeguards about avoiding odd blokes and only letting your hair down with friends goes against the reality.

OMG - do men really not know that they should check that the woman is willing to let them put their penis in them? Do we need to educate them to that level? If so, I am astounded that they have managed to be so over-represented in business and politics because they are thick as pig shit. Or, perhaps, it is not a matter of educating men in the definition of rape. It is a matter of telling them not to be so fecking entitled.

I love that Fugitivus link Quodlibet. It is simply brilliant.