I am so shocked about that thread stating most women have no pubic hair

[roseability]

I don't know quite why it has disturbed me so much. Like most women I have plucked/shaved and groomed for many years of my life. However the thought of putting myself through that really upsets me for some reason. Not that I plan to. It is just that I have never, ever considered that pubic hair is undesirable. I can't help but relate it to women in porn with little or no pubic hair and it makes me sad to think girls and young women (I have a daughter) will no doubt feel insecure about their vagina and how it looks in this way.

I am by no means a good feminist. As I mentioned I do shave my legs and I wear make up. I have read Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys and I question why I even do this. However it makes me almost weep to think of my daughter being influenced in such a way.

I was just really upset by that thread and I m not sure why

According to you, it's getting defensive, Proles.

But from where I'm sitting, it looks to me like anyone who expresses a different opinion from yours is defensive.

I can see why a lot of people avoid this topic now.

Hadn't had much of experience of it till recently.

Kaloki fgs. You have your reasons. Excellent. And culture/pressure/norms have absolutely nothing to do with it, for anyone, ever, especially not you. You are totally above being influenced by the culture you live in.
Now I wonder are you unique, or is everyone as independent minded? Someone should tell the advertisement industry for starters that what they do just doesn't work, on any level, ever.

Actually Jess you are the only one to have said that. And I thank you for it.

And why is it so difficult for those who do choose to do it to see that it is becoming a mainstream trend now that many women may not want to conform to but feel the need to?

We are accepting that you have made your choices for personal reasons. I don't think anyone has questioned that. Why is it so hard for you to see the debate from the other perspective that we are putting forward?

'Do you know what really really winds me up, this bloody minded arrogance. Just because someone chooses something that you do not like, does not make them brainwashed into it by the porn industry. You are not the only person able to think for yourself!'

Good point.

I've never heard a convincing justification for why anyone would want a hairless vagina, but I should imagine if porn didn't involve lots of women with no hair down there, some bright spark would still have thought of removing their hair for the heck of it.

I think it's harder to argue that the trend, rather than the individual examples, isn't to do with rather dubious attitudes towards women's bodies.

wukter I cannot speak for all women and less than you can. What I do not get is the idea that somehow people have decided (pre bothering to talk to anyone about why - see other thread) that it is all because of porn/pressure from men.

Not "in some cases", but all.

Of course I'm influenced by culture, so are you. But still perfectly able to think for myself.

So have British women changed from almost all being unshaved to almost all being shaved, over the past few decades? Caused only by today's women exercising individual free choice? I doubt it.

I think the idea has been planted in most of these women's minds by wider influences in society. How would 98% of women even know about the craze for shaving if wider social influences like magazines, celebrities, internet etc. were not mentioning its apparent desirability?

I think people are slightly overreacting to the vajazzling thing. I don't know anyone who's done it. Come on, it's a complete joke. The guy in the interview was messing around, he could hardly go 'well that's a bit pointless isn't t love?' One Hollywood bint deciding to do something silly to her fanny does not = cultural pressure on all women.

I think waxing is increasingly though

Kaloki, I think many people on this thread saw the programme last year which talked to teen boys and girls about sex & attitudes to the opposite sex.

The boys said that female pubic hair was disgusting/weird/wrong...and admitted that they had got their ideas of what the female body should look like from porn.

The girls said you had to have a "shaven haven" to get boys because it was disgusting to have hair down there and the boys didn't like it.

So maybe there are two, maybe three groups here:

women who shave because they like it and it was a personal decision/cultural etc etc back in the day when it would be unusual for women to be shaved.

women who wax and were curious about brazillians/hollywoods & tried it/liked it, women who were influenced by increased magazine coverage/celebs

girls who appear to be under pressure to depilate by boys/popular culture which says (influenced by porn) that normal women have bald fannies.

Kaloki - cross post there.

I honestly haven't seen anyone attack those who choose to do it for their own reasons, which they have stated. But, for some reason, those of us who are expressing our concerns for the generation of young women who may feel the need to conform to this trend are being attacked.

A few posters are advocating the choice to do it. But can't they recognise that the choice isn't a free choice when it becomes a societal and a cultural expectation?

I'm speaking for nobody Kaloki, just trying to understand the trend. You are speaking for yourself and because you made a choice you are happy with you think the wider discussion is ridiculous.

How is it so hard to see that there can (and often is) logical reasons behind it. I don't honestly think that my way of thinking is so far out there that it is the minority reason for shaving/waxing pubes.

What I have read on these threads is 9/10 people saying, it feels cleaner, and 1/10 saying their DH/DP asked them to. But it's the 1/10 that is being seized on as the norm.

I really don't think it's the 1/10 being seized on. It's questioning why/where/when the ten picked up on the idea in the first place.

JessIA

Probably because I'm fairly ignorant about feminism in day-to-day life, today as in 2011.

I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm sure you've heard all the misconceptions before so here's my 2ps worth.

• I like wearing make-up, removing hair and wearing high heels

• I enjoy cooking and will happily wear my apron my dh got me for Xmas because its got cupcakes on it :)

• I have a lot of friends who are male, I don't think they have ulterior motives for being my friend

• I work in a female dominated profession but that's because I love it, not because that's all I aspired to be

• I want to be treated equally, not better because I have a vajayjay

• I like it when someone holds a door for me (tbf tho man, woman or beast - you hold it I love you)

• I'm happy to give and receive compliments

It doesn't seen very appropriate to myself or my friends at this point in our lives. (Mid 20's) We all work, have plenty of opportunities and enjoy our freedoms. The word Feminism just doesnt sit well with me.

I hope no-one's offended I didnt come to shit stir just was interested as we were talking about it recently (both vajazzling and feminism lol)

I saw the Ch 4 series which SuzieKettles refers to.

And there are numerous sites on facebook entitled 'pubic hair is gross', 'I won't go out with women with pubic hair' etc etc etc.

I have read 2/3 people on this thread saying that it makes them feel cleaner. I haven't read the other thread and don't think I will.

As Vesuvia said, I find it hard to believe that this trend has happened all by itself. It's an industry, like any other - the beauty industry, I mean. Convincing women that they need to get rid of their body hair is another way of generating money for the beauty industry.

I'm sure that when the second volume of The Beauty Myth is published, the depilation trend will get its own chapter.

If I go on holiday and am wearing a swim suit or bikini, is it wrong to remove the hair that extends down the top of my thighs? Does that mean I am doing womenhood an injustice?

weedle, everything you've said about yourself is something I'd say about myself - except I would like eventually to get into a profession that has higher numbers of men at the top than women, but right now my work is female-dominated.

I'm a feminist though - I don't understand why your list makes me a feminist and you not one quite. (Not that I'm suggesting I know which of us is right, just interested that we define it so differently).

you could always wear a burkha, mears :o.

how you doin'?! :)

long time, no 'see'.

Weedle - when I was in my mid 20s I described myself as a feminist but didn't think it was needed anymore so wasn't active at all. However, as I've got older, my eyes have been opened and I'm now very active. Can I suggest that you do some reading around what feminism actually means?

I hold the door open for people and like having the door held open for me - it's called politeness!

I give and receive compliments - also called politeness!

I have long hair, wear make up and high heels (only to work though - as I hate them).

I have friends who are male too. Some would even describe themselves as feminists!

I think you have a lot of misconceptions about feminism and feminists! I am bemused by your compliments comments, especially! My feminist friends are some of the most intelligent, dynamic, kindly and supportive people that I know. They care about injustice and are prepared to do something about it. If I have a problem, I find myself going to my feminist friends above everyone else now.

I know you didn't come to shit stir, just thought I'd ask, seeing as this is the feminism section. Someone said this in a thread a few days ago prompting another thread.

kaloki I've seen you post before and my memory of that (correct me if I am wrong) is of someone who has suffered from certain expectations and judgments of a society which at certain points you felt you did not fit.

I honestly, honestly have not read pro-feminist comments on either threat as telling people not to do with their body hair. What I have read is a questioning of cultural trends. Questioning, not telling. Out of fear and concern for young women who may suffer from feeling out of kilter with, or coerced by, a wider society.

Examining - questioning - cultural change is, as i see it, an invitation to examine our own practices within that wider lens. Not an edict for individuals to all conform. I really really don't think that's what we have been doing.

thread not threat