I am so shocked about that thread stating most women have no pubic hair

[roseability]

I don't know quite why it has disturbed me so much. Like most women I have plucked/shaved and groomed for many years of my life. However the thought of putting myself through that really upsets me for some reason. Not that I plan to. It is just that I have never, ever considered that pubic hair is undesirable. I can't help but relate it to women in porn with little or no pubic hair and it makes me sad to think girls and young women (I have a daughter) will no doubt feel insecure about their vagina and how it looks in this way.

I am by no means a good feminist. As I mentioned I do shave my legs and I wear make up. I have read Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys and I question why I even do this. However it makes me almost weep to think of my daughter being influenced in such a way.

I was just really upset by that thread and I m not sure why

true, I think men having to shave is a "men's issue" in some respects, along with them having to have short hair. BUt I just compare that to women having to groom long hair, and wear make-up, and that's before we get into all the creams, potions and rituals

Not quite the same as regularly having to remove your your body hair around your nether regions, legs and armpits is it??? Men don't have to shave on holiday, but women are an obscenity on the beach if they've got hair all over their body

Advertising works because it sells something we want to be. Sexier, more attractive, popular etc.

Does it create a false desire or merely use what we want to be to sell stuff? Or mixture of both?

As for hairiness I feel most comfortable in a half way place, shaved legs (not much in winter), underarms and a tidier bikini line. I have no more desire to get rid of everything than I do to keep it all long.

Oh I was just responding to wilshelfs point about adverts and smoothness. Personally I don't do anything to my pubic hair, shave under my arms occasionally under duress (I hate doing it and feel very uncomfortable when I do but also feel very self conscious about having "hair under there" as ds put it once) and usually shave my legs in the summer once a week or so, although I don't actually think my legs look or feel nicer when I do. I'm generally quite resistant to this sort of stuff too - I don't wear make up or heels and feel quite comfortable about those choices, but you are right visible (non head) hairiness is seen as obscene.

I think it's all really crap, and would much rather leave well alone. It just seems so backward that instead of getting more liberated about this sort of rubbish the pressure has instead increased. My dd can now dream of being whatever she wants to be, so long as she conforms to a ridiculous expensive and time consuming beauty regime, which will bring her absolutely no meaningful gain.

My dh wears a beard as do many men I know, I don't think that it is seen as anything other than a personal choice (he mainly does it because he doesn't like shaving). He also alternates between very short and really quite long hair, and all of this is seen as legitimate personal choice (as is my hair style though, I've never felt under pressure to have long hair, or indeed that my currently long hair has given me any advantage/approval).

It's funny how all of the people who defend their rituals as being their choice, choose exactly the same things to choose to do as eveyone else.

I do some of this stuff sometimes - when I do I know it's because I am not immune to the messages sent by society and ads etc. So when I have been to the hairdressers (just got back) I feel pleased with my very groomed, glossy hair. Because I have been conditioned to believe that groomed, glossy hair is desirable. But fashions in hair change quickly, when I was a teen they were quite different, people had perms for crying out loud . And there is nothing wrong with my hair when it's not been done by the hairdresser. Ditto shaving legs. When they are clean shaven I experience the smoothness as a nice feeling because I have been conditioned all of my life that smooth feels better than hairy. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with hairy legs. I do think that some things itch when legs are hairy - things like wooly tights - things that men don't wear. So we dress for discomfort and then have to alter our bodies to try and accomodate our clothes.

And so it goes on.

There is no question that the list of things that teenaged girls are expected to do / "choose" to do is much longer than when I was a teen.

And Congrats Wukter!!!

So you think it is a false desire completely created by advertising Wutker?

I mean ISNT!

Advertising companies do spend a huge amount on making sure they tap into something that is already there.

Loads of research and groups and all that. They don't really want to waste money on something that won't appeal.

I know we all live within our cultural boundaries, but there are loads of decisions we can make within that. They might be tough ones or unpopular ones, but it all adds up to create our culture.

"It's probably because there's such lip service given to the idea that we're all individuals who are free to make choices and express ourselves.
It's an idea the media and advertising rely heavily on."

Indeed. I can choose to wear this or that or perfume this or that, or shave this or that because I am a individual with free-will. The fact that the marketing industry tells me I should do this to be pretty/feminine/acceptable has got nothing to do with my freedom of choice. Oh no.

I can of course still exercise my freedom to buy this brand of shaving cream as opposed to that brand. Bit of a bugger that so many brands are owned by such a small number of big corporations isn't it? .

You don't have to wear perfume. I rarely do. It's not compulsory.

If you want hairy legs, have them.

Why would I want hairy legs though Marsha?
I've been told for 30 years hairy legs are inferior/unfeminine/less attractive than smooth.

Maybe those things are objectively true. Doubt it though. As ISNT says when she was a teen it was objectively true that tight little poodle perms were the height of attractiveness.

And meant to say thanks for all the congratulations and sorry for totally hijacking the thread...

Quick name change as I know some of my clients know who I am on here.

I have been waxing since the age of 18, not all, only a strip left, but the last 5 years have had everything off, by virtue of going for a wax in Pari.

I find it doesn't hurt at all and only realised that everything had been whipped off when she asked me to turn over and do my "fesse" ( bum!)

My DH has always tidied up, but asked me to find someone who would wax him. He is now addicted to it and I must admit, I love it on him and am now far more inclined to give him a BJ - hence my privacy in name change!

I use to hate a mouthful of hair! he loves the smooth waxed feel so much he has it down every 4-6 weeks.

I have all mine off very 4-6 weeks too, pay for 3 get one free too!

Some people on this thread state they do, but are worried what their dh or others will think. That is a shame, if you know what you want; perfume or not, hair or not, do it and don't feel bad.

I know many of you are saying that choice is a delusion. I did actually study all this stuff for years! Reading, interpreting advertising, all that french deconstructionist stuff. Feminism. My friends and I got cross. It was an excellent education, for which I am grateful. I feel more immune.

Anyway. If people on here are saying we don't really have a choice, I sometimes feel that the cumulative effect within these threads is to make women sound more passive than they actually are.

Culture isn't fixed. So each little thing we do helps shape it.

Of course most people won't be hugely influenced by advertising to the extent of feeling obliged to go and shave their genitals because the adverts that sells Ladyshave says so. But some people might be. Especially young girls. And even those who aren't will begin to feel a little uncomfortable after constant dripfeeding of what is and what isn't acceptable.

I do wear perfume sometimes, I do shave legs and pits, I wear make-up most days now. Cultural conditioning? Yes, I think so. Compared to my mum I am 'groomed'. She never shaved anything, she rarely wore make-up and when she did it was powder and lipstick only, perfume was for special occassions.

And surely people who are just out to make money, and have no greater agenda, shouldn't be able to shape how future women will see themselves and how inadequate they feel about the way their bodies naturally develop.

It's not that we don't have any choice though, it is that those choices are not entirely free. Marketing and advertising is only a relatively small part of it, and as adults we can opt out of all sorts of things. Much harder when you are a youngster and very unsure of your place in the world.

WilfShelf: "Simmy, you don't think any of that attraction to smoothness (in ironed sheets, clothes, and skin) has anything to do with ideas of femininity? It's just, randomly, nicer to you (except not that random, since we find MANY other women 'just find it nicer' too)?

I honestly don't think so, WilfShelf. (interesting point to consider though). Since being a child I have preferred (for example) plain furnishings to patterned, block colour clothes to patterned. I am really fussy about colours and textures. I am very sensitive to subtleties of levels of volume (the TV has to be just right and I am constantly adjusting it depending on it being an action scene or a conversational scene, for example, to the annoyance of my DH). I can spot bad lighting at a party or restaurant straight away and I don't mean the light fittings, I mean the brightness or dimness depending on the atmosphere and projected ambiance they are trying to achieve. What I am getting at is that I'm sure it is nothing to do with notions of femininity (for me) and everything to do with an increased sensitivity to my environment, which also includes my body. When I talk about decorating and making the bed, it's because that's my immediate living environment that I see all the time, not because I see it as my realm as a woman.

I do agree that some men think "smoothness" a woman's realm, and to them, to revel in smoothness might compromise their masculinity in some sense. But it's still not what drives me.

'Advertising companies do spend a huge amount on making sure they tap into something that is already there.'

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that women's often feel insecure about their bodies in general and then to harp on about the relationship repercussions of their 'imperfection'. Advertising and sale of products that may well do more harm than good and are completely unnecessary follow -- hence deodorants for your 'girl parts' so you'll believe you are a nice-to-be-with-girl and that if you're not using the product you're possibly a not-very-nice-to-be-with-girl.

*Women often, not women's...

Fashion gets a bad time on here. For adults, I think it is an interest as any other. I could go on why I prefer 100% cashmere to a cheap bit of cloth from Asda; like a wine collector could a good wine, or someone who loves horses the stuff they buy or Harley Davidsons. It's something some people enjoy.

No more shallow, or delusional than anything else.

As for children, particularly young girls yes of course I would modify and explain and be quite strident in my wish to ensure the cultural messages are good ones. It annoys me that school age children have designer bags, they should have a standard school one and blazer, tie like I did!

As for generations my gm and mother were/are exactly the same as me (were French, probably cultural).

If you don't like the idea of pubic shaving, it's hard to figure out a way to approach it that doesn't insult people. We could blame it on "capitalism" and "patriarchy", but then some people have said they do it and like to do it, and they say they aren't mindless tools of capitalism or patriarchy, most likely correctly. So if we find it repulsive, what are we going to say? That anyone who disagrees hasn't got a mind of their own?

Hence "fashion". It's what people, all of us to some extent, feel that they have to do. A couple of decades ago, very few of us felt the urge to shave our crotches: now a fair number of us do, a good-sized majority of young women, and quite a few men too. Maybe in a few years time it'll all come to seem very stale and old-fashioned?

By fashion, I meant the fashion industry ...

Yes, yes I get that things change, that we are culturally conditioned. I probably got this out of my system years ago. Now I just edit and omit as much as possible.

I do think all children should study cultural criticism in their (late?) teens, especially girls.

'Advertising companies do spend a huge amount on making sure they tap into something that is already there.'

I don't agree with that. I think that they create insecurities that previously weren't commonly felt, all the time. Take the Dove deoderant ads - previously armpits needed to be clean and hairless - before dove who knew that they had to be silky smooth as well? Trying to create an anxiety to flog their product. It happens all the time.

Why does women's skin have to be glossy anway? What does it symbolise? I know that women put vaseline on the front of their legs to give them a sheen, before they go out. Hasn't it all got a bit silly?