I am so shocked about that thread stating most women have no pubic hair

[roseability]

I don't know quite why it has disturbed me so much. Like most women I have plucked/shaved and groomed for many years of my life. However the thought of putting myself through that really upsets me for some reason. Not that I plan to. It is just that I have never, ever considered that pubic hair is undesirable. I can't help but relate it to women in porn with little or no pubic hair and it makes me sad to think girls and young women (I have a daughter) will no doubt feel insecure about their vagina and how it looks in this way.

I am by no means a good feminist. As I mentioned I do shave my legs and I wear make up. I have read Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys and I question why I even do this. However it makes me almost weep to think of my daughter being influenced in such a way.

I was just really upset by that thread and I m not sure why

Historians among us: wasn't there a similar pushback to the one mathanxiety is talking about at the end of the Tudor period? Women began to run businesses themselves and own property and then - over a relatively short time - they kind of didn't - ?

There might have been a hair/pubic hair thing at that time too from (distant) memory...

Only just found this thread, what a great discussion. Heartening to see so many women opposed to the mass marketing of a plastic, sanitised parody of womanhood.

Totally agree with the poster(s) who pointed out that every self shaving woman (this entire generation) can't be acting out of individual choice. In the 70s no one went bald, now everyone does, but none of these women are influenced by popular culture?

It's like Charlotte from SATC chanting "I choose my choice! I choose my choice!" whenever she does anything Miranda considers unfeminist.

Didn't court ladies at Elizabeth's court shave the fronts of their heads to make their foreheads look higher and therefore more beautiful? (in their view)

Why don't we do that now then? Why are we making such radically different choices? It can't possibly be down to having a different cultural environment can it, it must simply be that women all make similar choices at the same time - such a co-incidence.

From where I'm sitting botox seems to do very much the same thing...

I was surprised at the level of vitriol against the notion that individuals are influenced by culture, and that culture is influenced by porn. Which part do you think made people more uncomfortable?

(Disclaimer - I am talking about the general TREND now not individuals)

Yes. That sounds likely. So it's rather more ego driven, rather than the mainstreaming of porn that has upset people.

I am v tired (newly pg! hurrah!) and not thinking very clearly.

The bit where we don't have automatic, inviolable and natural agency which sets us apart as individuals who are in control of our lives.

The bit where we really do have to engage with the fact that not only are we a part of a collective society, but subject to it as well.

The bit where we have to admit that "you're not the boss of me" is slightly muddied.

Congratulations wukter!

Thanks! It's very early days, just found out

Yes, Not just PART of society but SUBJECT as well. That's very well put & v interesting perspective.

Hmm. I don't know if this will make any sense (it is Christmas Day here, roast has been had and wine consumed), but I think the 'you're not the boss of me' bit is actually quite a bad sign.

I wonder if some aspects of 'post-feminism' (eg., joking about rape, 'ironic' sexism, the 'you're not the boss of me' attitude you describe, mele), might be because women are placed in a quasi-teenagerish position by the patriarchy?

Leaving that aside - lovely to hear your good news wukter!

At my work we're all educated post-grads but ss older harridans (35+) don't sport Hollywood's or Brazilians, don't angst over keeping bf entertained enough in the bedroom not to stray. We are proud to describe ourselves as feminist.

I find it depressing how pressured my younger female colleagues feel. They denude themselves of all body hair because they like it, fair enough, but also their bf's expect it. They also obsess over their weight and pour over magazines like Closer and other celeb magazines (and make comparisons) and are glued to FB. Co-incidentally their bf's treat them badly and although there is much angst and argument they put up with it . They say they are feminists but don't use the term as they think it's 'unfeminine and not attractive'

We were speculating why the difference in attitude and agree pornification of culture has a part to play, but my HofD put it also down to the Thatcher/Dallas/Dynasty/Greenham years where women were depicted in the press as powerful. I thought there was something in that.

LRD - I wonder is that more to do with 'kidultisation' of society and not a gender issue as such? It's a youth obsesses culture, in looks etc but in attitude too. Sensible, prudent, thoughtful, these are all deeply uncool middle aged qualities to have and not celebrated at all in pop culture.

Thanks Lenin

That last post is full of typos and errors, sorry.

Congratulations wukter

I too was surprised at the level of vitriol at just pointing out that societal influences (be they porn or otherwise) are likely to affect our decisions. I think the fact that porn was mentioned some people immediately start rebutting against that because they do not want to feel their decisions have been anyway influenced by something they probably don't like.

I also think that shaving pubic hair is just another element leading to a cycle of lack of self-confidence with women. You try it, your partner likes it, you have to continue doing it. Like being without make-up makes some women feel naked.

Sorry Narcolepsy I was having a moment

I remove my body hair (legs, pubic, underarm) because (to me) my hairless skin looks nicer and more uniform than it does with random dark wiry hairs poking up. It's an aesthetic thing - I am a very visual person. It's nothing to do with porn, men's preferences, society or media influence for me. It's simply that, taking skin almost as a canvas, it looks nicer smooth and hair-free. It's the same thing (to me) as preferring clothes ironed not creased; hair brushed not unbrushed; beds made not unmade; walls nicely painted not badly painted. It does not have (I am fairly sure) for me, a sexual influence.

Also, it actually feels nice. When I put tights on my legs glide into them if they are hair-free than when they are hairy. Bikini area feels nicer than when full of springing hair. This is also not sexual - it is the equivalent of preferring the feel of cashmere socks to cotton.

Just wanted to add my thoughts on why hair removal is not always a feminist issue. It can be a non-sexual visual or sensory preference.

Just to add that I'm not sure the Dallas/Dynasty/Thatch/Greenham nexus is a 'powerful' depiction of women: essentially, they (we?) were all read are masculinised vagina dentata too? Big scary, men-women, on one end of the spectrum, all business-like (think Thatch and her 'vegetables' in Spitting Image) - but to be slightly mocked in their 'performance' of power - and on the other, butch men-women, denuded of sexuality, still fulfilling a hysterical stereotype (I was at Greenham demos as a teenager and all I remember of press coverage was 'ululating harpies abandoning their families' type portrayal...)

Simmy, you don't think any of that attraction to smoothness (in ironed sheets, clothes, and skin) has anything to do with ideas of femininity? It's just, randomly, nicer to you (except not that random, since we find MANY other women 'just find it nicer' too)?

And funnily enough, we find men think 'smoothness' (um, ironing, depilating, smoothing...?) to be a woman's realm also? And for them to celebrate it in themselves might be somehow seen as not quite masculine enough. Sure, men like smooth shirts. But it wouldn't do to shout it too loudly, no?

Decorating, made beds. The more I think about it, the more I think smoothness is a condition of gender. Thank you Simmy.

"plastic, sanitised parody of womanhood" Brilliant analogy SkaterGirrrl

And I agree, HB. We should ask why women don't shave the front of their foreheads anymore, or shave off their eyebrows and re-paint them.

Or blacken their teeth like they did in ancient Japan, because only commoners had white teeth like horses.

Or, what is it about women that makes them desire silkiness and freshness in a way that men don't need to.

If shaving arises unbidden from women's natural, innate urges, why is it a collective, group urge? Why are people who don't conform regarded as obscene (again, I'm thinking of lots of pubes sticking out of your cozzie at the pool)?

It's not about being a weak person or not, it's about analyzing why you are influenced by the current fashion for women to shave

also agree with the earlier point that women have to eliminate their femaleness- eliminate signs of their bodily functions and their womb, their menstruation, and their humaness and become parodies of females i.e feminine
The further away from femaleness a woman strives to become,( No odour, no body hair, no fat, no noisiness) the more feminine she appears to be.

I'm not so sure about that one - most of the shaving ads are about being smooth aren't thy?