'A woman who drinks to get drunk is deliberatly endagering herself and inviting rape' Oh my Gosh

[SuperTheoryofSuperEverything]

TThis is the opinion of my seemingly reasonable policeman uncle.

A lot of men who are accused rapists are drunk during the act.

Are they endangering themselves to rape allegations by drinking?

'Not to mention an argument about the advisability or otherwise of shagging random blokes in alleyways or car parks'

And the advisability of shagging random women in alleyways or car parks?
Why does it always have to come down to the woman's behaviour?

In this case, presumably because her children are daughters.

SEth: because in the cases I'm talking about the woman is the one alleging rape. The poor judgement of the blokes in question meant that they were putting themselves at risk of being accused of rape, obviously. But I was answering the original point about women's behaviour being seen as 'inviting rape'.

Poor judgement doesn't divide down gender lines, but the likely outcomes of poor judgement in terms of drinking/drugs/sexual choices probably does divide that way, in the main.

It's not just about poor judgement.

It's about whether you have a sense of entitlement or not. You don't develop that just from being drunk, it has to be pre-existing.

Most women who are involved in drunken shags and didn't give consent, write it down to bad judgement on their part. They don't make a rape complaint. They don't blame their rapists - they blame themselves.

I realise that, Beatitude. And I agree that many men have a sense of entitlement and many women are perhaps insufficiently outraged at the way they are often treated by men.

But, and it's a But that I only developed after being closely involved in several cases like the ones I cited, there are cases, perhaps increasingly common because of the lowering of social taboos around casual sexual encounters, where it is simply not as clear-cut as saying the male is always the aggressor. In all those specific cases, there was no reason for the bloke/s to have any indication that the woman was not giving her full consent -- otherwise you argue yourself into a position where any woman in a drunken group sex situation is incapable of giving consent, which is clearly nonsense. Albeit the 'wild group sex' scenario is a very common pornographic theme, which clearly does tap into a particular type of rather nastily misogynistic fantasy, there presumably are women who enjoy encounters of this kind and consent to them perfectly validly.

But yes, I would absolutely advise my sons to be very very careful about casual sexual encounters, particularly in the context of drink and drugs, because they are putting themselves at risk of being accused of rape.

Do we really have to have a claim on this thread that loads/most rape cases that are reported to police are by women who got drunk and had consensual sex and then sobered up and regretted it and reported it as rape?

It's just not true, it's a myth peddled by people who want to propogate rape myths. False reports of rape are no higher than for other crimes. Most women who are raped do not report it, the ones who do self select to be the ones with more evidence as they know they will probably not be taken seriously

Really do we always have to go through all of this?

I also agree that drunkeness is a bum steer - most people are raped by someone they know rather than strangers when they go out and get drunk.

"In all those specific cases, there was no reason for the bloke/s to have any indication that the woman was not giving her full consent"

Was she giving an enthusiastic yes throughout the whole encounter...

Or did she say yes to one bloke and then a whole load of others piled in...

I have no idea, obviously.

I just remember that case where a woman was gang raped after agreeing to meet one man she had been chatting to online. The prosecution was abandoned as it turned out she had shared fantasies of consensual group sex with the man. What kind of court decides that because a woman has shared fantasies of consensual activities, it is fine and dandy to subject her to gang rape? Still that's where we are at the moment.

Yes it's really disturbing that just because porn tells people women want something, people are beginning to believe that women want it.

Remember that case of the woman who was pulled into an alleyway and raped and the rapist's defence was tht she'd asked him for rough sex and he'd reluctantly obliged? And the jury believed him - probably because they'd all seen porn which presents this behaviour as normal.

This pornification of our culture is so dangerous to women. People are being brainwashed into thinking that women like being pulled into dark alleys and raped, and love being gang raped.

FFS.

Has anyone seen the anti-unlicensed minicab adverts in London(?) at the moment? Can't find a link, but like the poster only far more graphic and solely aimed at women. Compare this with the Real men don't rape campaign in SA.

I am horrified at this advert. It takes a lot to horrify me.

Iphegenie - what are these cases you are talking about? What context were you involved in them? The only time I have heard of that happening is in group rape sessions for initiation into gangs. Is that what you are referring to?

Tethers yes i meant to start a thread.

There have been threads on here mentioning the poster campaign, and how ads like that serve to intimidate women, and add to a culture of anxiety that women feel they are liable to be attacked at any moment.

And yes I saw the ad on the telly the other day and it was really disturbing.

It's this relentless idea that women are at risk from rape by strangers all the time. And if only they behave correctly they will be safe. Don't drink, don't go out after dark, don't wear a short skirt, don't get an unlicenced minicab.

But guess what? Scores of women who got black cabs ended up raped as they got into John Warboys cab. Thousands of women get raped when they are sober, in a long skirt, in daylight. You can follow all of the "rules", lock yourself away, and still be raped.

The whole thing makes me so angry.

Iphegenie-

"there was no reason for the bloke/s to have any indication that the woman was not giving her full consent -- otherwise you argue yourself into a position where any woman in a drunken group sex situation is incapable of giving consent, which is clearly nonsense."

The best and easiest way to ascertain consent is to check. Perhaps to ask "Is this ok?". It's a handy way to clear up the 'mystery' of whether or not a woman has given her full consent. Ask. If you're not sure, then it's no.

Those telly ads for cabs have a basic message women you are prey and you are never ever safe It's revolting. And they're paid for by the fucking government. To generate some paid for cab phone requests.

Like men never get assualted or robbed or anything when they get pissed Yes that's right it's just women who must be afraid at all times

Sorry going off at a tangent.

ISNT, I meant to start a thread too- I did about the poster. It is so graphic- and to what end? To scare women out of being raped?! What the fucking fuck?

tethers are there any grounds for complaint do you think?

I was so fucked off when i saw that ad but didn't know where to start

I honestly don't know. I mean, there must have been complaints, right? Yet it's still on the air. The Heinz advert featuring two men briefly kissing was banned and this isn't. I'm not familiar enough with the ASA codes to know whether 'blaming the victim' violates any of them.

These are cases that I was involved in a professional capacity, I can't really specify more than that. They all involved a woman getting very drunk and inviting various (also very drunk) men to have sex with her.

Women can consent to sex, you know, even group sex. Which is not at all to say that all or even the majority of rape claims involve women consenting and then regretting it. But to point out (and I'm going to retire from this thread, since clearly everybody else lives in a universe where things are much more black and white) that the law is a very blunt instrument for dealing with the complexities of human behaviour.

As for telling my sons not to rape -- well, duh. Obviously there are some blokes who deliberately set out to rape. And others who have a sense of entitlement which is not that bothered about the niceties of female consent, which is also deservedly classed as rape. But there is a significant number of cases in which drink and drugs clouded the judgement of the participants so that they behaved in ways they might not have chosen to if they were sober. Some of those may be rape, but some may not. Sometimes the only thing that is clear is that both parties wish it had never happened in the first place.

So on the basis of experience perspective, I'll go beyond telling my sons not to be rapists (duh again) and point out that they need to be very careful about ensuring that any sexual act is consensual, and they would be wise not to embark on sexual encounters that might be venturing into a grey area in terms of the ability of teh woman to give consent and/or the ability of the bloke to interpret the woman's signals accurately.